Ep : 213 - How Does Adversity Foster Unshakeable Family Bonds? With Sam & Oscar Rathling
Show Notes
How do you find inner peace while facing life's trials?
Can deep thinking and visualisation shape a young man's future?
What can we learn about the power of authenticity from a dynamic duo?
Join me in this episode of the Fearlessly Curious Podcast with Sam and Oscar Rathling, a remarkable mother and son.
Oscar, a 17-year-old philosopher and aspiring data engineer, shares insights on following one's biological imperatives and the importance of focusing on the right things.
Sam, a LinkedIn expert and cancer survivor, opens up about her journey, the challenges of balancing parenthood and health, and how she transformed her battles into inspiration.
This episode dives deep into the significance of setting big goals, the power of mindset in overcoming adversity, and the beauty of being one's authentic self.
A riveting conversation that promises to inspire and enlighten.
Connect with Sam & Oscar :
Sam LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrathling-linkedinexpert/
Oscar LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/oscarrathling/
Sam IG: @samrathling
Sam FB: @samantharathling
Sam TikTok: @samantharathling
Website: https://socialselling.co.uk
Highlights from this episode:
00:00 Introduction
01:14 Oscar's Perspective on Life and Future
02:29 Sam's Journey and Professional Life
12:31 Oscar's Educational Challenges
22:54 Sam's Cancer Journey and Family Support
37:57 Facing the Brutality of Chemotherapy
38:31 Fundraising and Family Support
41:31 Oscar's Perspective on His Mum's Battle
46:27 Exploring Alternative Treatments
50:59 The Power of Mindset in Cancer Recovery
57:03 Oscar's Interests and Future Plans
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About Me:
I help you lead with fearless authenticity by smashing the self-imposed heteronormative stereotypes that keep you playing small through emotional healing inner child and inherited intergenerational trauma. Create a purposeful life of your unique design by disrupting societal norms and expectations of who you should be. Explore mindfulness, fearless curiosity and loving kindness through the lens of Human Design to thrive as the person you are born to be.
Learn more about my coaching method and join my emotional healing, mindfulness, and music community at melissaindot.com.
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Melissa: And welcome to another episode of the Fearlessly Curious Podcast with me, your host, Melissa Indot. And today I'm very excited, first time ever to have a dynamic duo . But what's more special is that it's a very beautiful mom and son. guest today, Sam and Oscar Rathling. Thank you so much for saying yes to be on this podcast. As it says in the title, today, all I'm going to be is just this relentless, mischievous, curious child asking questions about your extraordinary lives and to share the insights that life has
[00:00:43] given you and is giving you as individuals. On your individual journeys and on your journey together, because the parent and child journey is such a special one. I believe that we learn so much when we get to be open hearted and vulnerable about navigating that relationship, especially as a mom and a young man as individuals because before our roles, right, of being someone's son or someone's child or being someone's mother, you were both incredible individuals with your own unique gifts to offer to the world. First question, what's on your heart right now or top of mind right now?
[00:01:21] Oscar: I would say my future with my girlfriend, which I would like to make very good.
[00:01:26] Be able to provide a lot because that's what my biological imperative is to provide because I'm a man and that's what I feel like I should express.
[00:01:38] Melissa: How old are you Oscar?
[00:01:40] Oscar: 17.
[00:01:41] Melissa: That is a very mature purpose to have, to provide.
[00:01:44] Oscar: Say a couple thousand years ago, that's what my primitive, like, driver would be. Like, so I'm just like recreating that and following whatever my body is saying that I should do, because I feel like going out, being out of touch with what your body is telling you to do is not very good. I think you'll get more results out of following what your body's telling you to do.
[00:02:06] Melissa: Absolutely. The wisdom that you hold is, is palpable. So much of the problems that we have in the modern world is that we lead our lives. Through our minds and doing what we think we should and often ignoring what our body is telling us. So what a beautiful lesson you're giving all of us by telling us how in tune and connected with your body you are.
[00:02:26] So thank you, Oscar. Thank you, Sam. Over to you, Sam.
[00:02:30] Sam: I think if you'd have asked me this question, like 12 months ago, pre my cancer journey, which I'm sure we'll talk about I probably would have had a different answer, but I think for me what's on my heart right now is focus on kind of inner peace, my kids.
[00:02:45] My health and my family, because I've got a big family trip coming up and I'm looking forward to that. That's all that's on my heart right now. I'm going to go reunite with my sisters and my parents who live all over the world, my nieces and nephews. And that's really my current focus.
[00:03:02] Oscar: Okay.
[00:03:03] Melissa: Thank you.
[00:03:04] Yeah. With Christmas and new year coming up and to have the privilege of really leaning into family bonds is such a, it's such a gift. So So I'm going to dive straight in and I'm going to ask you this question, which is what is it that you, what is it that you do, right? So what's your day job? What is the mission that you're called, the service that you're called to bring to the world?
[00:03:28] You know, what do you do on a daily basis for work, let's say?
[00:03:32] Sam: So my professional role is I am a LinkedIn expert and social selling strategist. So I help. entrepreneurs and businesses to generate new clients from the LinkedIn platform. That's my primary focus and purpose in life. I've been doing that since officially full time since 2016, although I started doing that in 2010.
[00:03:54] It's kind of a bit of a side hustle. Yeah, so that's what I focus on. I work with I'm very privileged to work with big corporate brands like MasterCard and Brother and FedEx and all these awesome businesses. And I work with many, many entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, coaches, consultants. We have a few hundred people in our what we call our social selling suite, which is a membership where we teach people how to do this.
[00:04:17] Melissa: Okay. And, and what, what led you to do this? That's
[00:04:22] Sam: a great question. I have been on the LinkedIn platform since 2005. I was a very early adopter. It only kind of came around in 2004. And I was in the recruitment industry back then. So I was using LinkedIn in very early days. It was very much a recruitment driven platform.
[00:04:40] It was where you went to find a job. It was where you, your LinkedIn profile back then was kind of like your CV. So I was using LinkedIn for finding candidates and finding, and then I, Moved to Ireland in 2005 and set up my own recruitment company, became an entrepreneur. And I thought, Oh, I wonder if I can use LinkedIn to get new customers and build my network here in a new country where I don't know anybody.
[00:05:04] And that's kind of where I learned the skill. And then I realized that I had grown my recruitment business primarily through networking. both online and offline. And someone asked me in 2010, would you come and share your story about how you have grown your business? And I said, sure. How many people are going to be there?
[00:05:22] And he said, Oh, it's 200 person conference. And I had never spoken at all to any audience of any size. And I freaked out and I had major imposter syndrome and I got up there and absolutely loved it. Had a standing ovation and I just thought, I think I was born to do this. So that was when I really realized that that was what I really wanted to do.
[00:05:45] So that was the start of the journey, really.
[00:05:48] Melissa: Okay. It sounds to me like you're a person who's sort of mastered the art of jumping into the unknown. A hundred percent. Yes, for sure. That's
[00:05:57] Sam: definitely been a theme of my life. Well, now I'm 47 right now, but yeah, if I look back, I've definitely jumped into the unknown multiple times.
[00:06:05] Yeah.
[00:06:07] Melissa: And so what, what, what is it that, that has enabled you or empowered you to, to kind of see this open plane in front of you where you're like, Oh my God, I've never been here before. This is scary. The imposter syndrome that you mentioned, what, what have you done? What do you do? What's the, what's the secret Sam?
[00:06:24] What's Sam's secret?
[00:06:25] Sam: I think I've always been someone that sets big goals, like, I mean, I've instilled that in the kids as well, like, we've done, I mean, Oscar's been doing vision boards and goal setting since he was three years old. And if you go in his bedroom, he's got goals up there and everything.
[00:06:39] Sorry, Oscar, I'm just sharing all your secrets, but you do, like, you're a goal driven individual, right? And that's, I think even if I can't see how I'm going to get there, I, I set big, really, really out there goals that I think that I'm, and even if I set them and I think, well, how am I gonna, I don't even think, how am I gonna do that?
[00:06:57] I just know that it's possible to achieve it. So even if I haven't got the path and I can't see how I'm going to do it, I'll set a really, really massive goal and. I believe in manifestation, all that kind of stuff. So I do a lot of that and visualization, but I think that's probably partly as part of my makeup is that I set those big goals.
[00:07:19] And I think when you do that, you are less afraid to step into the unknown and less afraid to take risks and less afraid to jump into things because I believe that things are there put in front of you for that reason. And that's, if I look back on some of my big achievements, I would have probably written them down at some point over the last number of years.
[00:07:41] I actually just looked at my goal list for this year and I had not looked at it all year cause I've been so focused on my health. I'm like, wow, actually I've done quite a lot of the things I wrote down in in December or January. I always do goal setting the 1st of January every late every year.
[00:07:53] And yeah, so I think that's probably a big part of it is having vision, but also having belief. And be willing to take the risks.
[00:08:01] Melissa: Thank you, Sam. So Oscar,
[00:08:03] Oscar: what
[00:08:03] Melissa: are you doing right now?
[00:08:05] Oscar: Right now I'm learning programming with my uncle and data engineering, cause he's a data engineer and I find this life pretty ideal in my eyes.
[00:08:14] So I'm trying to replicate it at the minute. I haven't got a clear. Sites on what I would want to do eventually, but that's my starting point, so I'm learning programming.
[00:08:24] Melissa: So what is it about programming that you love? How did, how did your interest get sparked?
[00:08:29] Oscar: I seen my uncle doing it. He was telling me about it.
[00:08:32] And because I'm a very philosophical mind, I mentioned that to him. And he said, there's parts of programming with the aspect and conceptual, a conceptual aspect, and I'm very logical in my thinking. And. I just thought if he's doing it and he's related to me, he seems pretty similar to me. I think I would enjoy it as well.
[00:08:53] So I'm just diving into that now.
[00:08:55] Melissa: Okay. Well that, I have to say, that's the first time I've ever heard philosophy mentioned with data programming in the same sentence. I am, I'm really curious how those two are aligned and, okay. You mentioned about being a logical thinker, so would you say that being philosophical is about being logical?
[00:09:15] Like thinking with depth, is that something that, that, that being, you would relate as philosophy, anyone who's philosophical is someone who thinks deep with depth. So with data programming, what is required? What is the qualities required?
[00:09:29] Oscar: Thinking with depth undergoing multiple processes to get to an outcome.
[00:09:35] It's parts of it are conceptual, which is why I was mentioning to my uncle about how everything is conceptual and he is basically guarding me down.
[00:09:45] Melissa: So taking something that is a concept and making, turning that into a reality.
[00:09:51] Oscar: Yeah.
[00:09:51] Melissa: Okay. Okay. It was
[00:09:53] Sam: solving a problem, isn't it? And
[00:09:55] Oscar: yeah. Yeah. Okay.
[00:09:57] Having a vision and
[00:09:58] Sam: big ideas. Yeah. Because anything is possible, right?
[00:10:01] Oscar: Yeah.
[00:10:02] Sam: Yeah.
[00:10:03] Melissa: So you're providing that bridge, aren't you? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. As a data programmer. Yeah, data engineer. Really. Okay.
[00:10:09] Oscar: So we also improving a, a process that you can see has needs improvements.
[00:10:15] Sam: Okay. It's also looking at AI and tech and big data.
[00:10:20] And so we did a post on LinkedIn, actually didn't, which is how we met, I think Melissa. Yes it is. I'm gonna get to that story. We ended up on the podcast around Oscar journey and. the amount of opportunities that have come his way off the back of that have been amazing. So he's being mentored by somebody with massive experience in the consulting space in data engineering and data and AI.
[00:10:44] He's been invited by Google to come and spend a couple of days learning with them in the new year. He has well, you got donated a car, didn't you? That was pretty awesome by an amazing, amazing human. And there's lots of people stepping forward at the moment, I think, with Oscar being 17 and learning what he's learning with his uncle.
[00:11:02] He's looking for his first kind of break into a company that will give a curious mind. And a, the brain that he has, which is both brilliant and neurodivergent and giving him his first break into getting some either work experience or an apprenticeship or a first step on the ladder, really. So that's our focus at the moment.
[00:11:24] And Oscar's big focus is, what's your goal? How long are you going to be, how long will it take you to get in there?
[00:11:30] Oscar: I reckon I'm mid next year at the latest.
[00:11:35] Sam: Yeah. So that's his focus at the minute. So upskilling with his uncle to learn the technical skills and then leveraging my network and now his network
[00:11:46] and the
[00:11:46] Sam: network of the people he's being connected with off the back of that post.
[00:11:50] to secure an opportunity for his kind of first step in his career.
[00:11:55] Melissa: That's incredible for a 17 year old. That is incredible. So I, I'm going to dive even deeper now. And yes, you know, that LinkedIn post where you shared about Oscar's journey was what grabbed my attention. I was like, I, I don't, I don't care how it's going to happen.
[00:12:09] I need to have these two incredible people in the podcast. And I love, you know, when you said yes, it was like, my God, that was easy, you know so yes, if you could share a little bit of. of what I would say your compelling personal story of adversity. So the struggles, what struggles have you faced prior to where you are now?
[00:12:32] Like, how did you end up being a 17 year old studying this? You know, the, the, the, the immediate question would be why are you not in school? Okay. And what happened, Oscar, if you, if you could share a little bit of that with us?
[00:12:46] Oscar: Well, school was never really for me, to be honest. I felt like I really like learning, like learning is not my favorite thing, but then the way the school does it, I didn't like, like whenever I got home, I would learn off my own back and things that I wanted to learn.
[00:13:00] So when I find, I think I have found something that I'm interested in with school, a lot of school I was interested in, but. It was, I didn't really pay attention or bother to do things when they were, I felt that I didn't find an interest in them, but I found when I found an interest in something I excelled in it.
[00:13:20] So, and that's why I stopped schooling basically, and to learn something that I find of more value, and that I'm more interested in, and excelling that. I know it's a pretty difficult path to go down, because nobody will believe you, like, that you're That you have. value to them, but I feel like I can prove value.
[00:13:44] I just need a foot in the door.
[00:13:46] Melissa: Oh my goodness. And kudos to you for the, for the courage to do that. Yeah. Because the systems are there for us to kind of, we are kind of expected to change our shape, to change who we are, to fit in, you know, it's that proverbial square peg in a round hole. Or the other way around and the, the struggles we have, we hear about and that you've experienced in school, right?
[00:14:11] Where the focus is on where what's not working for you rather than bringing focus to what does work for you and motivation and inspiration and the clarity you have, like I said, is, is really admirable. I mean, yeah. Thank you. For, for mum, for you, Sam, what did that look like for you with that experience for, for Oscar?
[00:14:28] Because I, I sense that Oscar's also being incredibly gentle and polite with the, his approach in the way that he's describing the journey. He's being
[00:14:36] Sam: very, yeah, I mean, obviously it, it was quite challenging for him in school. I was very different in school. I found school. amazing. I was a prefect. I was a grade A student.
[00:14:46] Like I was very epidemic. And I loved school. It was like something I really enjoyed. I went to quite a few different schools cause I moved around a lot growing up, but I think as a mom watching Oscar experience, School obviously that we had locked down when he was in his secondary school phase and I think he probably spent most of lockdown not doing school.
[00:15:06] Yeah. And, you know, logging into session but not actually being in class as a gaming or whatever, which is what I think most people your age. ended up doing in lockdown.
[00:15:17] Oscar: Yeah. As much
[00:15:18] Sam: as the schools were trying to do homeschooling and home learning, like the kids this age were definitely not in school, probably for 18 months.
[00:15:25] So that brings its own challenges because they miss out on a lot of what they should have been learning. And I think a lot of the teachers misunderstood Oscar.
[00:15:32] Oscar: There's some teachers that really understood me and I learned a lot more from them. And
[00:15:37] Sam: you were much more engaged with the teachers who got him.
[00:15:40] So. Because, Oscar, you don't mind me saying about your ADHD and
[00:15:45] Oscar: Oh, no, that's fine. Yeah, so
[00:15:46] Sam: Oscar has ADHD, Asperger's, and something called ODD, which is Oppositional Defiance Disorder. So, if he loses respect for an individual, he will not
[00:15:56] Oscar: He'll not
[00:15:56] Sam: engage. Whereas, I feel like if there were a few more teachers that had got time, had taken time to understand his brain and understand how brilliant he is and understand how actually how smart he is
[00:16:08] Oscar: because he's
[00:16:08] Sam: very smart.
[00:16:09] He could have aced, he could have absolutely aced every subject but I feel that because he was quite misunderstood he was branded as a troublemaker. He was put in detention. I can't even, I lost count of how many detentions he was in. He was branded a bit of a troublemaker and even now my youngest daughter has started the school that Oscar has now left.
[00:16:28] And some of the teachers are saying to her, Oh, your brother was, you know, this, that, you know, they were taught they're talking badly about him to her, which I think is very unfair. They had taken the time to actually realize what they had in their hands, they could have nurtured. Oscar and actually helped him.
[00:16:46] Yeah, I mean,
[00:16:47] Oscar: school has to provide for everyone, so I, they can't really do much, to be fair. I mean, a public school, anyways, with limited resources, they have to cover everyone, so.
[00:16:58] Sam: Yeah, it's just a shame. I think, I think, had they realised what they had in their hands, it might be a different story, but, you know, but Oscar's finding his own path, and You know, you know, he's, he's now got to find his, his path with grades that, you know, on paper don't make him look particularly attractive to a, but that's obviously part of the challenge now is, I think if he gets that opportunity and a foot in the door, which is where he can prove his value, as he said.
[00:17:26] That they will hire him probably within a week of getting some work experience. But that's what happened to me in marketing. I got hired by an agency that gave me some work experience. And that was my start in my journey. And I feel like the same is going to happen for Oscar. You know, he'll get a foot in the door somewhere, someone will give him an opportunity, he'll go in and they'll be like, wow, he's brilliant, like, let's hire him.
[00:17:46] And he'll get in the back door without a good degree, without, you know, all the qualifications, without, you know, here's all my grades. Because he didn't come out with loads of grades, you know, he passed, you know, enough, but not at the level. And he's not going down the traditional route. He's learning.
[00:18:03] through doing and practical skills, but he's not in college, and he's not in university, and he doesn't want to go down that path because of his experience in education. So I feel like he'll get further in life more quickly than the other colleagues that he would have been at school with, who then go off to go and do college, university, but by the, by the time he's 21 in four years from now, like he will be doing amazing things.
[00:18:25] And most of his peers will be just coming out of college. University without any life experience and without any work experience. And I feel like he'll be a more valuable asset to the workforce than most of the people coming out with, you know, no. Well, they'll have education, but no work experience. No work experience.
[00:18:42] And having been in recruitment for 14 years, I'd rather hire someone with four years experience under their belt than to hire somebody that on paper has got great, great grades, but has no practical application, you know? So.
[00:18:55] Melissa: There's something to be said for, for doing what you love in this case, right, rather than focus being forced to do what doesn't light you up.
[00:19:04] And yeah, like you said, you know, this, it's, it's in a way harder, but really, is it harder? Because is it not harder to stay where you are? It doesn't feel comfortable, doesn't feel safe. It feels like I don't fit in here. So it's super hard being here rather than creating your own path, which it seems is what you're doing, Oscar.
[00:19:24] And how, how, how is this experience different for you now doing kind of things your way, even though it's like, there is no, well, I would say probably at first there was no structure. Cause if you decide, made the choice to leave school, it's like, okay, now what do I do? Right. What, what was that like for you?
[00:19:39] Oscar: I've thought about it relentlessly and I tried to map out a structure and I also do, I don't really like to call it manifestation, but I hold the idea of something in my head for, so I do this thing, I do five minutes of meditation, so I tap into the, the infinite realm of possibilities. And then I focus on one thing and like to only focus on that.
[00:20:06] And. It becomes more prevalent in my life, because that's how your life is created. Your life is created based on your thoughts. So like, for example, whenever you have a dream, it's always like, linked to it's in your subconscious, and it's linked to what's happening in your real life. I have this like, so frequently, that I don't even like, keep track of it anymore.
[00:20:23] So I may have a dream, and then I see someone, and then the next day I see them, and then Like it happens so often, so whatever you're focusing on is created within your reality. Absolutely. And whatever in your subconscious, so like whatever you see on a day to day basis, everything I'm seeing right now so if you focus on the right things and place the right things in your reality, then it will materialize.
[00:20:47] Melissa: Wow. Absolutely. I'm like, I'm like blown away cause like I was reading and discovering all this kind of stuff when I was probably in my late thirties and I'm so excited that for you as a young man and this crazy world we live in and it is a crazy world that's moving at warp speed that you have such, you're so grounded and that you have this structure in your life and discipline and focus in your life and a strategy. And it begins with, you know, meditation and focusing on this, because I agree with you a hundred percent. You know, there's so much that's going on in our subconscious mind. And when we are not When we are not aware of the subconscious mind, then we can lose ourselves in the chaos of life.
[00:21:27] So, so I want to hold this, put this over back to mom, like Sam. So these strategies that you employ too. Yeah. My goodness. Yeah, no, I'm
[00:21:37] Sam: super proud of him. I think you know, He'll come and he'll come and say, Oh, mom, can you order me this book? And it's like, it's not the kind of book that a 17 year old would normally be reading, you know?
[00:21:46] So I,
[00:21:47] I just listened to
[00:21:47] Sam: him and I think, Oh, I'm so proud of him. Like, I, I think we do it in slightly different ways. I, I probably need to take a leaf out of Oscar's book. And I just find it very difficult with my, you know, if I take my work and my life. I find it very difficult to get headspace to even think about anything other than, are the kids okay?
[00:22:06] And is my business okay? So it's manic, you know, yesterday I would have started with, you know, being up at six 30, sorting out the door, getting the kids to school, starting work at nine, delivering a workshop for 200 people, coming back from that, grabbing a quick five minutes break, going straight into a corporate training with an insurance company, straight into three sales calls, finishing at seven o'clock, going to the athletics track, Coming back and then the kitchens chaos, et cetera.
[00:22:31] That is my life basically. With. You know, me being not particularly organized and a bit messy, three kids who are all neurodivergent and are particularly not, I mean, Oscar's probably the most organized and, like, structured of everybody in the house. His room's perfect, but you take the rest of the house, it's absolute chaos.
[00:22:48] So I find it very difficult to even stop and breathe and have a moment for a second for myself. So just because, you know, being a single mom 24 7, It is chaos, and it is busy, and I don't feel like I get a lot of headspace to do the kind of things that, you know, Oscar's talking about there, so I definitely need to do that more, and I think, especially with my cancer journey over the last 12 months, I'm definitely now much more inwardly focused on me and the kids, and I do need to find some headspace, because it's very hard.
[00:23:23] Sometimes I
[00:23:23] Sam: might come back from dropping him off at boxing, or Oscar does Muay Thai boxing or my other daughter does sprinting. And I might just, my, my head space is my car. I come back from dropping them off somewhere and I just sit in the car. Just to get some peace. Cause I know as soon as I walked through the front door, mom, mom, mom.
[00:23:42] So I just sometimes just sit in my own quietness in the car for a few minutes on the drive, and sometimes you can find me in the car, don't you? That's what, that's my equivalent. I think of. Oscar.
[00:23:53] Melissa: That's mum's cave.
[00:23:54] Sam: That's my mum's cave is the quiet zone. Yeah, my cave because the only place where I can't have somebody grabbing me for, you know, whatever it is that another child needs.
[00:24:05] So I think I definitely need to do more of that. I've just finished a cancer support UK course. With Cancer Coach. And one of the big things when you've been through cancer is I think you, you kind of know that it's going to be physically challenging because you know you're going to go, your body's going to go through so much.
[00:24:25] But I don't think anything can prepare you for the psychological and emotional trauma that you go through. And it's like your treatment finishes and they spit you out of the system and it's like, off you go. And you've spent 12 months. Thanks. Going to, from appointment to appointment, having a structure, having a schedule, going through chemo, going through radiotherapy, all these things are just part of your life, and it's, that's all, that's your, you're just on this roller coaster you never wanted to get on in the first place, and you can't get off of it, and then you come off the ride, and then there's nothing there to support you, having come off of it emotionally.
[00:25:03] Oscar: So
[00:25:03] Sam: Cancer Support UK, I'm about to become an ambassador for them but they really focus in on the kind of going through all the, the, you know, the challenges that you have to face. You're grieving the person you were before, your life is so different. You lose friends very close friends along the way, support, support, we're going to be there.
[00:25:21] Things
[00:25:21] Melissa: move fast, right, Sam, as well. Yeah. It's a very fast journey.
[00:25:25] Sam: It is. Yeah. It's, at the time you feel like it's very slow because. Every day is so challenging physically and mentally, but I think that I hadn't quite prepared myself for the, that, that kind of
[00:25:41] Melissa: transition.
[00:25:42] Sam: What next? In transitioning, I mean, I have a scan next week.
[00:25:45] I have major scansiety. It's the first one a year after, exactly on the day a year ago, I had my surgery. So obviously I'm hoping for an all clear, but that's occupying my brain right now and it will do for the next week until I get my results. So it's just that whole, I think because I just, that's what occupies my brain outside of the kids and work and everything else is like, am I going to be okay?
[00:26:08] Cause I want to be here for them. I want to see him do amazing things. Of
[00:26:12] Melissa: course. You know, of course. Do you feel that do you feel that part of the busy ness is a way for you also to overthink your cancer journey?
[00:26:22] Sam: 100%. Yeah. I throw myself into work when I want to avoid things. So I have not stopped working all the way through.
[00:26:31] I've reduced my workload. I've probably worked. You've
[00:26:33] Oscar: reduced it?
[00:26:35] Sam: Well, during my chemo. Yeah. I didn't stop. Like I didn't, I think if I had stopped work, it wouldn't have been good for the business anyway. But I had a lot of contracts that I had just signed right before I got diagnosed. I won a contract with Mastercard and two weeks in I was having to tell them I have breast cancer.
[00:26:53] I don't know what my journey is going to look like. I don't know if I'm going to be able to show up on the days that we have. I had a massive contract with a company in Canada. And I remember being at the side of the athletics track, having to speak to the client, having just closed the deal to tell them, I don't know what day my surgery is going to be.
[00:27:09] I don't know what, if I'm going to be able to do this sales kickoff for you. So it was very challenging. I still had to deliver all of that. But I also think that me working through it kept me sane because I think if I had had to sit with. just dealing with the, you know, the brutality that is chemotherapy and the physical stuff that I had to go through without having that touch point with people and work that I don't think it would have been a good journey for me.
[00:27:36] So I think I probably, now that I'm back into full time work, having gone through all of the treatments, I think to a certain extent, you're right. Like I probably do fill my days with work and kids so that I can avoid having to think about things like my scan next week. Sure for sure
[00:27:55] Melissa: to Totally understandable.
[00:27:56] Totally understandable. Do you, are you a person who, are you open to giving yourself the opportunity to get some support? To have some support?
[00:28:06] Sam: Yeah, a hundred percent. I'm looking forward to spending time with my family 'cause they all live all over the world, so I think if they were closer.
[00:28:13] Mm-hmm.
[00:28:13] Sam: And I have, I have my parents slightly down the road or my sisters, but they're in Australia, New Zealand, Portugal, they're everywhere. So although we talk, it's not the same as having. Like them right here, but also I definitely recognize that I definitely need to get other help to deal with, you know, what's going on.
[00:28:30] Because I don't think, I don't think people realize how difficult that journey is, you know, and I definitely need to get some more support on that. So we're heading off to New Zealand and Australia shortly in a few weeks. That's about three weeks today,
[00:28:46] Oscar: three weeks. Yeah.
[00:28:47] Sam: So I know, right. So I think I'm looking at that's kind of kept me going all year.
[00:28:51] Like that, that whole trip, seeing my family, taking the kids for an amazing life experience is kind of the thing that's kept me going this year. So I think once I get back 2025, that's, you know, subject fingers crossed to my scam being all okay. Then I will be like, right, okay, what do I need to do for me to get my head in gear for a good 2025 and beyond?
[00:29:15] So it's just very hard to think about planning so far ahead and all of those things without knowing kind of where you're at. So, so fingers crossed it's all good.
[00:29:25] Melissa: Cancer journey is such an individual one, right? And it's, it's something that really it's impossible for anybody to truly understand. Yeah.
[00:29:33] Because it's so personal and so different. I mean, I, I, my father had cancer my, my soulmate had cancer and I've had many friends also who've had cancer. And I know that that journey really is just so individual. And as I mentioned, I, in fact, what I've come to realize more than anything is that often people who are navigating that cancer journey, it's very hard for you to to think of yourself first.
[00:29:59] Because you're, you're hyper focused on the people that you love and that you care about. So, I keep you in my realm of visualization for a healed version of you, Sam, and a gentle and tender journey ahead for you. I appreciate
[00:30:17] Sam: that. I think I'm through the worst right now. I just, at the moment, I'm on some pretty Horrific medication that has lots of horrible side effects and, you know, we hate that, don't we?
[00:30:29] Is
[00:30:29] Melissa: it, is it is it, is
[00:30:32] Sam: it,
[00:30:33] Melissa: is it, is it a chemo and a pill, pill or are you done with your chemo? Yeah, I had
[00:30:36] Sam: two years of that and a pill and then I have I have, my breast cancer was oestrogen receptor positive or ER positive, which means that I also have to be medically induced into menopause. So I have ovary suppression injections every month.
[00:30:52] I have tablets every day for the next five years that stop my body producing estrogen because mm-hmm .
[00:30:58] Oscar: My
[00:30:59] Sam: cancer was a grade three, which means it was very aggressive, so, right. And it responds to estrogen, so they've had to strip every single part of my body that produces estrogen, which is primarily outside of the ovaries, is the bones and joints, and.
[00:31:13] So those tablets then make me very susceptible to osteoporosis, have other medication that stops my bones from going brittle. So there's like all these things that I'm taking and obviously that's thrown me into menopause way earlier than I was expecting to be. So that brings its own challenges for Oscar as well.
[00:31:30] Yes.
[00:31:31] Melissa: It's like challenges for everybody, right? Yeah, right. For everybody, not just for me,
[00:31:35] Sam: but like people around me. A lot of people think, oh yeah, you've rung the bell, like, yeah, you, you're good, you know, you're fine now. And it's really, that's when it all starts. And I'm, I'm on medication for at least the next five years.
[00:31:47] And you know, those oral chemo pills are two, that's two years and they have horrific side effects that mean that I really struggled to leave the house and the bone and joint pain feel like I'm 75. So I can't like, I look like an old woman, don't I? Yeah, you have changed a lot. I have changed a lot.
[00:32:04] Yeah. What, what do you think? Yeah. How is it? No, no, go ahead. I mean, I was, I was going to go over to Oscar and say, Oscar, how has this been for you?
[00:32:13] Oscar: Obviously I was very sad at the start got used to it, but I felt a lot of empathy towards my mum and more grateful for my mum because the threat that she wasn't going to be there was more prevalent, so, and I felt the need to help her a lot more and care for her more.
[00:32:30] Thanks babe. Yeah. And I think
[00:32:33] Melissa: yeah, it was a hope for all the kids. How did you find out Sam?
[00:32:37] Sam: I actually found out wearing lump. I my mum had survived cancer three times and she had breast cancer at 43. So I knew that being one of three girls, I knew that statistically probably one of us was going to.
[00:32:50] So I rang my sisters and I said, I'm taking one for the team cause I'd rather it was me than them. Yeah. So yeah, I check myself every month and anyone listening to this that doesn't, you know, whatever age you are, like people are getting cancer so much younger these days, whether you're male, female, or, you know, anything in between, like check, check yourself.
[00:33:09] And if you find anything that isn't your normal, go get it checked because nine out of 10 times it's not going to be. anything sinister. But I'd had cysts before and I'd had different things before. I'd had additional breast tissue. I had some surgery under my arms for additional breast tissue. So I, I know I knew what my normal was and it was actually a white t shirt that saved my life.
[00:33:30] I, normally wear something quite baggy to bed or something that's like, I don't know. And I couldn't find what I normally wear. And I just grabbed this white t shirt out of my drawer and it was kind of a sports t shirt. So it was quite tight fitting and I was lying in bed. And because the t shirt was quite tight, it meant that my breasts were like in a different position than they would normally be.
[00:33:51] And I did my check. I thought, what's that? And I just felt, and it was like, it was quite a big, like hard, very hard lump that if I pressed it, it didn't hurt. Didn't hurt, yeah. Just to
[00:34:03] Melissa: be clear, it didn't hurt. There was no
[00:34:05] Sam: pain. That is, that is a sign. And then I, then, And then my head was, it was a Friday night, so it was quite late on a Friday night, it was about 10.
[00:34:13] 30 on a Friday night, and I thought the GP's not open until Monday, the doctor's surgery's not open until Monday, so I spent the whole weekend freaking out. And then I, when I looked a bit closer, I was like, that doesn't look right, that's not normal. So externally, I had a few indications that it wasn't quite right.
[00:34:30] Skin can look a little bit like an orange peel. Like a little bit, the skin changes slightly. It's not the only thing, there's quite a few different symptoms, but it is worth checking what are the signs because as soon as I found the lump, I went and looked externally, I thought actually that doesn't look, that doesn't look like it should look so I, in my, I already knew before I even had my appointment with the breast clinic, I knew because of mom and I knew that it felt different to anything I'd had before.
[00:34:56] And I went to the doctors on the Monday and he said, just because your mom says Joe, I'm going to send you to the breast clinic. It's probably nothing. But then I got the letter through and it was like urgent referral, like, Suspected breast cancer. And I was like, Oh, maybe he was just being nice to me saying it's probably nothing.
[00:35:12] But then, you know, within two weeks, I was into the breast clinic. I had a mammogram, had an ultrasound and I went into the consultant and she said, I've got to tell you, Sam, this is not looking good. She said, we haven't done your biopsy and we don't have your tests back. But she said, based on your mom's history, what I've felt and the scans that I'm looking at, she said, you need to prepare yourself.
[00:35:33] And she sent me, she sent me out and then I had to wait two weeks. Goodness. What did you do in those two weeks? And then you're like, that's the worst bit. Honestly, the limbo periods of not knowing was the worst. Once I knew and I had a plan, I was like, right. I mean, I know what my plan is, but those times when you're waiting for a result.
[00:35:55] So once it was diagnosed, fine. It was literally straight in. Surgery was 10 days later, removed the tumor. And then she said, well, we're not sure at the moment whether or not you need to go through chemo. We're going to send the tumor off to America. So the tumor went off to America for something called an Oncotype DX test.
[00:36:12] And with my type of breast cancer, which was ER positive HER2 negative, they can do this test that determines whether or not you will benefit or not from chemotherapy. And my score came back. It's not a test you ever actually want to do well.
[00:36:26] Oscar: Once you're really rich, you can send it off somewhere and they can test it. what it is and then what chemo it needs. So you did, that's what they did. I thought that was like a really expensive course.
[00:36:39] Sam: It is very expensive and the NHS paid for it, which is amazing. They don't do it with every, they can't do it with every tumor, but they can do it with some types.
[00:36:47] So it wouldn't be relevant for everybody. Like if you were triple negative, or you were, I don't know how many types of breast cancer there are. If you were triple negative or you were HER2 positive or that, but specifically for that type of tumor, Cancer, they can send it, they test it. So I, I mean, I had to make a light hearted journey from Lilliana, my, my youngest, because obviously these two get it, but she was a, she was ten when I got diagnosed, eleven now, or she just had her twelfth birthday, but I called it Larry the Lump, and I said, Larry's gone on holiday.
[00:37:20] And when Larry goes on holiday, he's going to this place where all the other Larry lumps are and they're going to find out whether or not, you know, because he said to me, the first question was, are you going to lose all your hair? And I said, I don't know yet. But Larry's gone off to America and when he's there, we'll find out whether or not I have to.
[00:37:36] And he came back with a score of 33 out of a hundred and you need to be 25 or less to not go through chemo, but that's a 10 week wait. Oh, so going to America and. Me finding out whether or not I was going to have chemo. I didn't know. So for 10 weeks to find out, are you actually going to go through? And obviously the fear for everyone when they have cancer is the chemotherapy part, right?
[00:38:01] That's the surgery is fine. You can cope with the surgery, but the, the chemo knowing, like, obviously I didn't know how bad it was going to be. It was absolutely brutal. But it came. How
[00:38:12] Melissa: many rounds of chemo did you?
[00:38:13] Sam: So I was in chemo for 18 weeks in total. The first part of it was one treatment every three weeks, and then I went into nine weekly treatments.
[00:38:23] So I had two different types of chemo. I had EC, or the red devil, as they call it, first. And I thought that, I'd been told that would be the worst one. And I lost all my hair within The first round, after the first round, but we did a brave the shave fundraising event, didn't we?
[00:38:39] Oscar: Yeah.
[00:38:39] Sam: So I've raised 13, 000 UK 100, 000.
[00:38:45] So we're still fundraising, but we did raised a couple of thousand pounds. So, I shaved my hair because I knew I was going to lose it all, and I wanted to take control. And then my daughters Maya and Lily, who were 11 and 14 at the time, both shaved all their hair off as well. So that was amazing. Oscar was the only one who didn't, but, you know, he wanted to look cool for the girls, so it's fine.
[00:39:05] It's all good. He was the one helping me shave.
[00:39:09] Melissa: You came to
[00:39:09] Sam: the event, you helped me fundraise. Oscar also ran Race for Life. So we did Race for Life as a family, which was cool,
[00:39:15] Oscar: wasn't
[00:39:16] Sam: it? Oscar came fourth out of 1500 people in Race for Life in the 5k. So that was pretty cool as well. And we all dressed up for that.
[00:39:24] And we had, I think we had Sammy soldiers, I think there were 28 of us all together that did Race for Life. So we've done a lot of fun stuff along the way to raise funds. I've spoken about my journey, I've documented all on TikTok. Because I wanted to help. I couldn't find any other single moms talking about their journey.
[00:39:45] I found lots of people talking about their cancer journey, and particularly breast cancer, but I found it very hard to find someone like me, that was both raising teens and preteens as a single mom, working single mom. So I found one amazing documentary by a lady who was a filmmaker, who had a, was a single mom to one child and she had an amazing documentary called The Waiting Room.
[00:40:10] Which is very worth watching if anyone's listening that's either got a friend going through it or has been diagnosed because it really is like what it's really like. It's the closest thing that I've watched that is like what it's really like because when you go and get your diagnosis they just send you about the door with a bunch of papers and go there you go there's your pack and it's like what's it really like so I wanted to find TikTok was an amazing community of cancer people, or people with cancer, sharing their journey because you don't know what a chemo room looks like.
[00:40:40] You don't know what it's going to be like when it goes in. You don't know what the radiotherapy room looks like. You don't know anything because they don't tell you anything. So that, for me, has been I think for me, documenting my journey has been my way of kind of almost therapy.
[00:40:56] Yeah.
[00:40:56] Sam: By talking about it, I'll get in front of camera if I'm in tears, if I'm going through a horrible day, like I'll just jump on the camera and it's very raw and very real, my journey.
[00:41:06] So I wanted other people to see what the dark days look like, what the good days look like, and for other people to be able to go, yeah, that's really helped me because I'm six months behind her. How long does it take to recover from a lumpectomy? How long is it, you know, what is chemo really like? So yeah.
[00:41:24] So I think
[00:41:26] Oscar: I'm
[00:41:26] Sam: glad I did that.
[00:41:27] Oscar: Did you have any other questions?
[00:41:29] Sam: Oh, , have you got any other questions? Yeah,
[00:41:31] Melissa: I was, I was gonna come back to you, Oscar, and say, you know, what has it been like for you kind of observing and watching your mom go through this?
[00:41:40] Oscar: Mm, I have to pinpoint it. It's obviously sad. And made me feel sad that she was feeling sad. I'm surprised she's still got work done in her state. Yeah.
[00:41:49] Sam: It's like a lot of
[00:41:50] Oscar: people. Yeah.
[00:41:51] Melissa: Game face on. Is there anything, and I'm, and I'm, tell me if you're comfortable with this, okay? Is there anything you would like her to be doing differently now?
[00:41:59] Oscar: Not really, because I know her, my mum's very strong in her, will like what she wants, she should want. So if I was to change it, which I've learned in the past, it would not end well because she stands her ground. So I've just given up, to be honest.
[00:42:15] Sam: We, we've had we've had a few years of, I mean, we have a great, I think we have a great relationship now.
[00:42:20] I mean, we have our moments, right now we do, but there were a couple of years there where Oscar and I really had our challenges because we weren't understanding each other and. You know, we did clash quite a lot and we had pretty, you know, we had our challenges, didn't we? But I think, you know, now being through the other side of that is amazing, you know, and I think we have a really strong relationship now.
[00:42:41] And I love how he's so amazing with his girlfriend. I feel very proud to have brought up
[00:42:47] Oscar: a
[00:42:48] Sam: son who treats a woman so well. You know, she's sent me a message saying, I You know, thank you for raising such brilliant, you know, brilliant boy, because he treats me amazing. And I'm like, that's one thing I really wanted.
[00:43:01] I want, you know, I wanted him to, I'm just so proud of him. Like, you know, his, his drive, his ambition. I know he'll go on to do amazing things, but you know, the fact that he's, You know, carving out an amazing life for himself, I think is awesome. So
[00:43:15] Melissa: do you, do you visualize together, sit down and visualize together, do visualizations together or visualize Samuel health because Oscar spoke about spoke about the power of visualization, meditation, and tapping into the subconscious mind and focusing on the outcome, the like, literally the only outcome.
[00:43:35] That is possible, that you're choosing to be possible. The two of you not sat down and realized. We've never
[00:43:41] Oscar: done that together, no. That's actually interesting because maybe if more minds are backing one idea, then it will be more likely
[00:43:50] Melissa: to manifest. Absolutely. So how about that, Oscar? How about, how about this is an idea?
[00:43:55] That as you are the one who practices this every day, right? You're focused on this. This has become something that is ingrained in you. It's almost like breathing for you, I imagine, right? That you experiment and make it fun. Because. If anything's going to be fun, if it's going to involve the whole family, right?
[00:44:13] And sit down and lead a visualization, like a family visualization. Yeah, that's a good idea. I don't
[00:44:19] Oscar: think my two sisters have the attention span for that. Neither have I normally.
[00:44:23] Melissa: Well, that would be, that would be the challenge,
[00:44:25] Sam: right? I would love to learn that from you. I would a hundred percent. Like I, I think I think I do have the capacity.
[00:44:32] Capacity. Yeah,
[00:44:33] Oscar: no, I think you do, but definitely not the other two. The other two maybe. And that would be the challenge, Oscar.
[00:44:38] Melissa: It's like. You know, it's like, you know, we, mom and both of you mentioned earlier about having big goals, right. Big vision and big goals. And how do we get to this big vision and big goals isn't by, it's easy to get overwhelmed when it's so big, but what you do is you break it down into these actionable steps, right.
[00:44:54] Stuff that, you know, you can one sort of one foot. One step in front of the other. So I would, I think that would be something awesome. A challenge for you to break that down for your, for your sisters. I'm a
[00:45:08] Sam: down under.
[00:45:09] Melissa: Yeah. So I'm cool in New Zealand. And do it out in nature and do it with your whole family.
[00:45:15] Sam: I
[00:45:15] Oscar: don't think you need to be somewhere spiritual. I think you should be anywhere and it's quiet.
[00:45:19] Sam: Well, maybe when the girls are at school then.
[00:45:21] Melissa: And then, and then Oscar, you could even do this. You could even record. Record it, like voice note it or record it and then send it to mom. Mom will have it on her WhatsApp or, you know, saved in her phone.
[00:45:32] So in those moments, Sam, when you're, when you're feeling overwhelmed or when you're, that memory of, you know, like you said, you're, you're given this information and you're like, okay, now I have to wait two weeks. It's like, what the, right? In those two weeks, like every day, mom could have your voice guiding her in a visualization.
[00:45:51] Sam: Yeah, that's a good idea because I have my scan coming up and I think I have two weeks after my scan and then we go away. So, yeah.
[00:45:58] Melissa: That's a good idea because you've got meds, you've got all these, this cocktail of meds that you're taking. And really the power within us and we, you, you hear this and you read it, right.
[00:46:10] And it's easy to read, no doubt. When you're going through yourself, you know, people go, Oh, it's, you can heal from within. You're kind of like, yeah, easier said than done. You have, you have a young man here who's. Focused on this practice you have a buddy to visualize with. And I'm, I'm curious Sam, whether you've had the opportunity or the space or capacity to explore alternate treatments for your cancer, if any.
[00:46:39] Sam: I, yeah, no, there's a lot. I mean, you, you get, you get thrown so many people, like, there's, I can put different people in different categories, right? You've got the people that want to tell you everyone, everything and everyone in their life that's had cancer. Then you have the people that want to sell you stuff and want to pitch you, you know, alternative therapies, left, right and center.
[00:46:58] And then you've got the people that disappear and ignore you and act like you don't exist which happens to be one of my closest friends. And then you have people that really step up and support you no matter what. So you have all these groups of people around you. And I think I'm very much, having seen my mum survive cancer three times, and all she did was trust the process medically.
[00:47:20] I was very much of that, like, I'm gonna just do whatever the doctor tells me to do. Even though some of the stuff that she said was recommended, and I could, and I had a choice as to whether or not I did it, including my meds right now. You know, we went through, And looking at the percentage chance of it coming back, the more medication I take, the less chance there is of me having a reoccurrence.
[00:47:43] So why would I pick the lowest option? Like, I'm just like, if I've gone through chemo, I can cope with the side effects of this drug, this drug, this drug, this drug. Just give me everything you can throw at it because I need to be here for my kids. So I don't want it to come back. I never want to have to go through chemo again.
[00:48:00] And yes, I could explore. Multiple multiple alternative therapies. And I do know some people who have done that, but that's because they have no other choice. Some people that are at kind of that stage for we can do nothing else. I know a few people that are acting on alternative therapies for that kind of thing.
[00:48:18] I think if I was. being diagnosed and being told you've got six months or you've got three months, I probably would have maybe looked at it differently because I, but I think because I knew that my cancer had been removed and now everything's about preventative, it's not like I'm battling cancer. Is there a chance of it returning?
[00:48:44] Yes. Of course there is, for anyone who's ever had cancer, you can obviously have it again in the future. But all the medication I'm taking is designed not, is designed to keep it away. So, if I was in a situation where I still had cancer in my body, and I was at a later stage of diagnosis, I probably would be looking for any, any route to keep me alive longer.
[00:49:08] But because of where I'm at, I mean, I take things like I know there's a lot of trials going on things like Soursop and so I have that I have Graviola every day. I have, you know, multiple, I take lots of extra supplements to support my body. I've changed my diet, not massively, but I have, you know, I stopped drinking 700 days ago next week.
[00:49:30] So and largely that was because of our relationship wasn't great. And I felt like I was not very emotionally regulated and I knew I needed to change something. So I took the decision to go sober 10 months before I got diagnosed, but I'm 700 days without a drink. Congratulations, by the way, that, that is, that is huge.
[00:49:48] So I think that has helped because I think if I had an immune, obviously your immune system gets battered when you're having chemotherapy. So I think the fact that my body was probably in the best condition it had could possibly be in like my liver. My, you know, my organs were in a very good place compared to where I would have been, say, two years prior.
[00:50:09] I think that helped set me up for. Being able to battle what I needed to battle. So I think I would explore different alternatives, but I don't need to currently is kind of where I'm at, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't everyone's journey is different. And if somebody chooses to do that, that's cool. But. I knew that I wasn't, I was always going to, the option for chemo meant that it was going to keep it away and blast my body.
[00:50:40] I would do it. I could have said no, I want to explore something else, but I just trust the process and I trust my doctors and I trust my consultants.
[00:50:49] Melissa: And you trust yourself because I think what you said right in the beginning, right, what's really important is belief and you kind of trust your own choices and your decisions.
[00:51:00] Sam: Yeah. I think mindset has a lot to do with it though. I mean, I, my friend is a cancer nurse and she's in the ward where if you get really sick and you're in, you're in treatment, you sometimes don't come out. Like that's the ward she's in. And I've been in there. It's a horrible place. I saw three people not come out.
[00:51:15] Because if you get, if you If you are sick when you are going through treatment, you have no immune system, so your body can very, very quickly decline. And I was in hospital, what, how many days? Four, five days? And I wasn't sure if I was coming out. I didn't tell the kids that, but that's the ward you'd never want to go in.
[00:51:35] And she says to me, I can always tell who's going to get through their treatment, who's going to, because she said they've got a mindset that is positive and they've got a mindset that is, I'm not this, I'm going to get through this, but she's, she can always tell who's not going to do well. And then not have a great outcome and it's largely to do with their mindset, not their body having, you know, she's been a nurse for 10 years in the cancer ward.
[00:52:01] So, but she can always tell, she can always predict who's going to do well and who's not. And it's never to do with their physical capacity. It's to do with their, their mindset.
[00:52:09] Melissa: And you, you have a, sorry, go ahead.
[00:52:12] Oscar: What's the reason that you named your podcast Fearlessly Curious?
[00:52:16] Melissa: Because I am an eternal student.
[00:52:21] I'm always learning and I love to learn and I find people's lives fascinating. So am I a bit nosy? Maybe that's one way of saying it, but no, I find, I find people's lives fascinating, fascinating. Because, because it shows me how incredible this world is and how incredible humans are, because our personal story, what we go through is incredible, our strength, our resilience, our courage, our vulnerability, and.
[00:52:48] Not only do I get to learn about what other people are going through, so it colors my world. It's like watching a movie, right? It makes it, it colors my world. But this is the thing, Oscar, it makes me learn more about myself because the things that I, that I hear other people saying, I'll have an opinion about, right, either it resonates with me, I'll get goosebumps like so much today of what both of you have been talking about.
[00:53:14] I got goosebumps. It resonated. But sometimes in conversation. And not just on the podcast, someone will say something and I get super activated, meaning it's a polite way of saying I get really majorly triggered. So then I get curious with myself. So after a conversation or podcast, I'll come away and I'll be like, okay, why was I so triggered about that?
[00:53:33] And so I learn about myself. Triggered as in
[00:53:34] Oscar: like, Irritated. Like, Oh, irritated.
[00:53:37] Melissa: Like triggered meaning like it, it triggers a, what could be termed as a negative response. Like I'd be irritated or something would make me angry. Maybe they said something that I took personal offense to, right? So I'd go back and ask myself, why are you so triggered by that?
[00:53:55] Why are you so annoyed or irritated by that? So I feel like we learn about ourselves.
[00:54:01] Oscar: Yeah, because we all have, I mean, we all have a similar biology and like, you can see yourself within other people, even if you don't identify with the, how other people act is still a part of you and you have the capacity to do it.
[00:54:17] It's called your shadow in Carl Jung's theory of individuation, if you know what that is.
[00:54:22] Melissa: Yes. I love Carl Jung's work. And yes, the shadow, the shadow work is so important. And often, you know, it's like when someone, and I do this with my clients, you know, they say something or they have a very passionate response or judgment about someone, someone or something.
[00:54:37] Oh, that person is a beep, beep, beep, beep. And I'll be like, okay, stop. Go ahead.
[00:54:41] Oscar: Do that themselves.
[00:54:43] Melissa: Yeah. Cause I'd be like, you, you can, you, you can only recognize that kind of behavior if it lives in within you. Right. That's a reflection. So Carl Jung, who else do you love to study and read about?
[00:54:58] Oscar: I like Albert Kalmas.
[00:55:00] So it's like Nietzsche. It's like, it's like Nietzsche, but Like, nothing matters, but it's a good thing, because nothing matters. Like, if you know what I mean. And it's like, he believes in absurdism, so everything's just a random, like, mess, and we don't know anything. I don't even know what I'm talking about right now.
[00:55:18] Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's sort of the paradox of thinking, deep thinking, right? The more we think and the more we talk about something, the less it has any matter. What's the book that you're
[00:55:30] Oscar: I have two books that I'm focused on right now. One is, what's it called? Becoming Supernatural by Joe Dispenza.
[00:55:39] Sixteen Laws of Success by Napoleon Hill, which is Think and Grow Rich, but the original version, which is Less Watered Down, I've heard.
[00:55:47] Melissa: Oh, really? I don't know. I don't know that Less Watered Down version. What's it called again?
[00:55:52] Oscar: 16 laws of success. Yeah. It is. Yeah. I just bought it for you.
[00:55:58] Sam: Yeah.
[00:55:58] Melissa: I'm going to have to check that out.
[00:56:00] Thank you. I'm very curious.
[00:56:01] Sam: My office is like, mom, can you order this for me? And I'm like, Oh,
[00:56:04] Melissa: I'm really curious about your, your reading list. And actually Oscar probably outside the podcast, I've got a couple of books that I can't think what they are off the top of my head now. Have you read conversations with God?
[00:56:16] Oscar: No, I've not. Sam,
[00:56:18] Melissa: have you?
[00:56:19] Sam: Yeah.
[00:56:19] Melissa: I have
[00:56:20] Sam: read
[00:56:20] Melissa: it. Yeah. Have you read all four?
[00:56:22] Sam: No, not read all four. And I read it quite a while ago. Actually. I think you'd enjoy Sapiens as well. That's one of Nick's recommended way. Recommended. Yeah.
[00:56:31] Melissa: Conversation with God is, it's, it's pretty profound stuff. Yeah. Anyway, I'll think of it.
[00:56:36] a while
[00:56:36] Sam: ago though. I should probably reread it.
[00:56:38] Melissa: Yeah. You know how I enjoyed it, Sam? You're reading
[00:56:40] Sam: it with Oscar and vice versa. Yeah.
[00:56:42] Melissa: Yeah. I'd love that. I'd love that. And what was I going to say? Yeah. Okay. What I'm also enjoy, what I enjoyed actually was during lockdown was audio books. It has a completely, has a completely different effect, sort of taking in the information where you don't have to read.
[00:56:57] Sam: You like making notes as well, don't you? You highlight and make notes as well, don't you?
[00:57:03] Oscar: Yeah.
[00:57:04] Sam: I think you have, I think Oscar should have a podcast. I, I feel like you'd be.
[00:57:08] Oscar: I mean, to be fair, I actually feel like I would be good at creating content.
[00:57:13] Sam: Yeah, I agree.
[00:57:14] Oscar: And I feel like I have a lot to share that I don't really share, but then I Most of the time when I try to share what I share, they really listen, or they listen, but like, they
[00:57:24] Sam: don't understand it because you, so it's not they don't listen, it's that they don't get it because they've not, they've not learned the things that you've learned, or they're not, maybe they're not open to some of the things that you have learned about.
[00:57:38] But I think with a podcast around that topic, you would find your tribe
[00:57:42] Oscar: of people that do. It's such a small niche that it's hard to get into.
[00:57:48] Melissa: What's your niche? What would you, what would you like, what would you like to talk about on your podcast? Cause I tell you what, I tell you what, Sam and Oscar, if you, if you want to, if you want to have a go with it, I'd be happy to feature you as my very special guest.
[00:58:03] I mean, my podcast is small, but it's still a podcast. I do it because I love what I'm, I love asking questions. You want to get practicing, you want to talk, you want to choose the topics, pick a month next year. Let's get you on every week and we'll jam
[00:58:16] Oscar: if you're up
[00:58:16] Melissa: for it. You up for that?
[00:58:18] Oscar: Yeah. Yeah. I would.
[00:58:19] Melissa: What would you like to talk about? Let's, because the listeners now, people are going to tune in. Let's prep them. Right. And get them, lean into community and say, come on, support us here, support Oscar here. Right. And tune in. We're going to be talking about things that he's passionate about. So what are those things, Oscar?
[00:58:36] Oscar: I feel like a lot of my interests are not like very versatile as in not a lot of people have them. So I'd be
[00:58:42] Melissa: surprised. Thanks. You'd be surprised, like, like, like Sam said, like your mum said, what's the population of the world now? 8 billion? 8 billion, something like that. There's a lot of people out there.
[00:58:51] Oscar: I really like music. Music's like my second favorite thing.
[00:58:55] Melissa: What? You have found the right person. I'm a musician. I'm a songwriter. I'm a singer. I use music in everything that I do. When can I book you, Oscar?
[00:59:05] Oscar: My girlfriend is also aspiring to be a singer or in the music world. And she's going to music colleges and been doing like performing arts.
[00:59:14] And my first favorite thing is philosophy or asking questions.
[00:59:17] Sam: Yeah, I think you, you like having very grown up adult conversations about philosophy and things that when you try to have it with a lot of people in your world and your age, nobody gets it. So I think having those kind of, you like having a bit of debate or a discussion.
[00:59:34] I
[00:59:35] Oscar: really like to find people like that. I mean, the people that I resonate with the most and have the most careful are always people with that kind of mind.
[00:59:43] Melissa: Okay. Well, Oscar, if you're up for it, cause I'm certainly up for it. I love a good debate. I'm, I'm thinking maybe this is something, something we could play with.
[00:59:52] Like choose a segment, a chapter, whatever it is that really, really inspires you from one of the books that you've read or reading, right? Send it to me. I'll read it too. And then we could just get and record a podcast about it. We get into a discussion and a debate on something specific. I can send it out before we have our session.
[01:00:14] I can send it out to my community, right? I can put, we can put a post up wherever you are and tell people go read this. Book club, book podcast. We're going to have a major debate about this and the lens we're going to bring is, Oscar's, I'm going to help you, Oscar, bring that philosophy from that part of the book into what it's like being a 17 year old, like how can you apply that as a 17 year old in your world, in tech, AI, you know, coding, and then I'm going to try and do it.
[01:00:46] For a woman in her midlife. So this is going to be really interesting. So I'm 50 when, how can I apply that philosophical wisdom as a 50 year old in Southeast Asia? Are you actually
[01:00:57] Oscar: 50?
[01:00:58] Melissa: Yeah. No way. I
[01:01:01] Oscar: am. Oh my gosh. What's the secret?
[01:01:04] Melissa: Okay. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. So that everybody can see this. This, what, first of all, thank you.
[01:01:09] One of the secrets is this. It's a cheat. Hang on a minute. Do I, can I, can I adjust it? HD. Is that how I take off my, oh no, see my skin. Does it look different? HD? No, you still look,
[01:01:21] Sam: you still definitely don't look 50. I do love the zoom filter though, to be fair.
[01:01:26] Melissa: Yeah, yeah, 50, 50 and we can play and we can just have fun with it and just put it out there.
[01:01:31] That's the beautiful thing about the world now with the, with the internet, right? Just create content and put it out there. You up for it? I
[01:01:38] Oscar: feel like a lot of my friends would describe me as a good source of entertainment. Like when I have energy, I can like entertain for like ages, but it just depends.
[01:01:50] Some days I feel like it, some days I don't, but I feel like. I could do that myself, and I feel like I would actually enjoy content creation. I just need to find what I'm made, but yeah. Yeah,
[01:01:58] Sam: well maybe this is a start, you know, do a few conversations with Melissa, find your, find your jam, find your vibe, and then Find your jam.
[01:02:05] There will be tons of people out there that would like, listening on, listening on what you have to say, just because the people around you don't listen. That's the whole beauty of having a podcast. It can go to how, like how many countries is yours listened in, Melissa?
[01:02:17] Melissa: Oh, I think the only continent that I haven't touched fully is the African continent, otherwise it's all in all continents, Europe, Asia, Southeast Asia, Australasia, and North and South America.
[01:02:33] Sam: That's the power of a podcast, right? Anyone can listen to it, anyone can create one, and anyone can listen to it anywhere in the world, like, it's amazing. I have one, but I stopped doing it a while ago, but we're just about to reintroduce a new one, me, Nick, Chris, and Nick, my business partners, but like, it's amazing what happens, and amazing who comes forward, and someone might listen to your conversation with Melissa, And then go, Oh, I need to have him on my podcast or, you know, an opportunity might come because someone listening to this hears about you and goes, Oh, I'd love to give Oscar an opportunity, you know, so you never know what can
[01:03:04] Melissa: happen.
[01:03:05] And what's going to be important, because we get fearlessly curious with philosophy, we can get fearlessly curious about Carl Jung speaking about archetypes or speaking about shadow. Right. I think what's going to be important, like I said, is to apply that to. Your lens, which is, I'm a 17 year old who basically broke out of the educational system to carve my own life.
[01:03:28] Right. And I love coding because I, you know, I'm a deep thinker, but I also love reading about absurdism, which tells me that as a deep thinker, all of it actually doesn't, who cares, basically, it doesn't really matter. And we can just have this conversation going round and engaging and challenging. We can challenge Jung.
[01:03:46] Right. And put it out there and most important is have fun. And you can be the entertainer too, when you feel. I
[01:03:52] Oscar: find it very fun to have deep talks.
[01:03:56] Melissa: Yeah. Me too.
[01:03:57] Oscar: Well,
[01:03:58] Melissa: whoever thought that another podcast would come out of this. I know right. Oh, I'm happy. Go for it. Anything's possible with you. I'll step out,
[01:04:05] Sam: I'll step out the way on YouTube and just do your thing.
[01:04:08] I love that. Maybe not at 10 in the morning for him though. Yeah. You don't mind? Okay.
[01:04:12] Melissa: Oh, okay. What I love, what I love most about this podcast with both of you actually is that, you know, we had a form, Sam filled it in and Oscar filled it in.
[01:04:20] And normally I'll go through the questions. But this felt so much better because this really felt like I'm really in the room hanging out with the two of you. I so appreciate Sam, you going into such depth on your cancer journey. And Oscar, you sharing your struggle with school, but also you come from such a compassionate angle.
[01:04:41] You're like, I totally understand. They have to cater for everybody, and being so forgiving . Compassionate, , and Sam, I mean, the amount that you are juggling, I know it's a lot . And then she said, she said, I just have a podcast, do it all. I got rid of my podcast, but I'm gonna bring it back.
[01:04:58] I was thinking to myself, did you know what to say? You've got like, you're, you are like juggling 10 billion plates. I know. It's been an absolute pleasure honor to have both of you on the podcast today. Been a pleasure to speak to you. And lovely to meet you, Oscar. Thank you for waking up early. Sam, thank you for being just a wholehearted yes, right from the start.
[01:05:22] Didn't, we didn't even know each other. I literally reached out because of that personal LinkedIn and we had an, we had an amazing connection call. It's, it really means a lot to me to have both of you on this, on this podcast. And before, before I sort of wrap this up, I just want to ask, what is one thing you'd like to leave our listeners and our viewers with?
[01:05:40] Sam: I think I would like to leave your listeners with just remember what I said about, you know, your health is the most important thing. If you don't have your health, you have nothing. So make sure that you check yourself regularly, scheduling the calendar and. Find anything, go get it checked out. Like that's the big thing for me and my message to the world now is, if one person listening to this does that and I save a life, then I've done my job.
[01:06:06] So that's what I like to leave with. And for any young person out there listening to this, like just believe that anything is possible and Just because things haven't gone well for you in education or school, that doesn't mean it's the end for you and just find your, find the right people to get around and when you believe in yourself anything's possible.
[01:06:25] Oscar: I would like to leave people with authenticity, so act in alignment with your inner self and don't be afraid to show like who you really are, even if you're going to get judged, because more people will, I found that people that like you will like you more if you're being yourself. And also people around you will be more in, like, you can put on an act and then people within the act will like you.
[01:06:51] But then if you just be yourself, people that like you for you will like you, and you have to put less effort into putting up an act. Well, that's just my perspective anyways, because I find that hard to put on an act for too long. But yeah, I would agree with
[01:07:03] Melissa: you putting all that effort to be someone that you're not.
[01:07:07] Oscar: Yeah.
[01:07:08] Melissa: Once again, thank you, Sam and Oscar, it's been amazing and of course to have you, you, the two of you have such an incredible connection. I admire your courage, Oscar, you know, the being on this journey with your mom, having your own journey, being on this journey with your mom. And of course, Sam, you being on your your cancer journey and on top of being a single mom, running a successful business and, you know, being a single parent to how many children, four?
[01:07:38] Three, three, three, three plus a couple of mates. So
[01:07:41] Sam: I've grown more like
[01:07:41] Melissa: five. And don't forget the fur babies. Of course.
[01:07:45] Sam: Yes, of course.
[01:07:46] Melissa: I wish you a fantastic break. Please do your best not to work, Sam, when you're away on holiday, have some amazing family time and Oscar, don't forget, don't forget that little challenge, challenge, yeah?
[01:07:57] Family visualization. I'd love to hear about it. I'd love to have both of you back in a couple of months. To see the results of the family visualization. Sounds good. I'll reach out to you and folks who are watching or listening, get ready for a special feature month. With Oscar on it, if, if, if the idea still feels exciting for him,
[01:08:21] Oscar: yeah, then
[01:08:22] Melissa: we're going to have, we're going to have Oscar and we're going to be, we have be having philosophical debates between a 17 year old and a midlifer now that doesn't get more colorful than that.
[01:08:33] Thank you again. And take care, Sam, hold you in my prayers and my visualization and to all your family too. Until next time. Bye. Bye.