Ep : 212 - Pioneering Stories: A Conversation with Ling Yah on Pivoting, Podcasting, and Personal Branding
Show Notes
How does one find their true passion amidst societal expectations and professional obligations?
What drives someone to pivot from a successful law career to start a podcast?
Meet Ling Yah, founder and host of 'So This Is My Why' podcast, a lawyer-turned-media entrepreneur looking to make storytelling and personal branding accessible for corporate professionals.
She spent almost a decade working as an intellectual property litigator and in-house corporate lawyer before realising that law wasn’t something she wanted to do for the rest of her life.
There had to be something more out there!
This curiosity led to the launch of the "So This Is My Why" podcast (“STIMY”), where she features inspiring people about how they have found their why and turned them into reality, and how others can do the same.
With multiple features on the Late Late Show with James Corden, to date, the STIMY podcast has hit over 200k downloads, and ranked #2 in Malaysia & Singapore and #3 in Indonesia.
150+ extraordinary guests have been featured including :
Founder of Channel News Asia, Evernote and Rotten Tomatoes
The first Chief Marketing Officer of Airbnb and SVP of the Coca-Cola Company
Ex-Chairman of Malaysia Airlines & Senior Director of Kinokuniya Book Stores (APAC)
New York Times bestselling authors (e.g. Daniel Pink),
Michelin-starred Chefs
Olympians, social entrepreneurs (Jacqueline Novogratz of Acumen), viral TikTokers, academics, artists and even an art forger who evaded the Mafia and the FBI for decades!
Ling Yah shares insights on the power of stories, her professional background, and the pivotal moments that led her to pursue podcasting.
We explore topics like overcoming societal conditioning, personal branding, and the importance of curiosity.
This episode is filled with inspiration, practical tips, and the importance of following one's curiosity.
Connect with Ling Yah :
Website: www.sothisismywhy.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sothisismywhy/
STIMY Newsletter: https://sothisismywhy.ck.page/profile
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSZlcS5ooyCjj_MkrmH_WhQ
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1ZK3NFTEX2EWXTvwelWHA7?si=rhU70hzZTSaRWrphIBe-7g
Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/my/podcast/so-this-is-my-why/id1521191442
Highlights from this episode:
00:00 Introduction
09:40 Pivoting from Law to Podcasting
12:37 The Power of Personal Stories
21:01 Starting the 'So This Is My Why' Podcast
21:35 Reaching Out to High-Profile Guests
26:22 A Career in Marketing: Overcoming Barriers
27:41 The Power of Asking: Ling Yah's Struggles and Successes
35:55 Personal Branding : Ling Yah's Approach
40:48 The Importance of Curiosity and Asking Why
47:07 Words of Wisdom
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About Me:
I help you lead with fearless authenticity by smashing the self-imposed heteronormative stereotypes that keep you playing small through emotional healing inner child and inherited intergenerational trauma. Create a purposeful life of your unique design by disrupting societal norms and expectations of who you should be. Explore mindfulness, fearless curiosity and loving kindness through the lens of Human Design to thrive as the person you are born to be.
Learn more about my coaching method and join my emotional healing, mindfulness, and music community at melissaindot.com.
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Melissa: Welcome to another episode of the Fearlessly Curious podcast. And today I have as our special guest, a fellow Malaysian, and she is the founder, the host of another podcast called So This Is My Why. You'll see the very colorful background behind. Welcome Ling Yah. Thank you so much for joining us today.
[00:00:21] My first question is, how are you doing? How are you feeling?
[00:00:23] Ling Yah: I'm good. Thank you, Melissa. Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad we can make this happen. And it's always a pleasure to be able to speak to another podcaster. I think only podcasters really understand the whole difficulty and struggles, but also the joy of running a podcast.
[00:00:36] Melissa: Absolutely. And I feel very privileged to have you as a guest on the podcast because you are an experienced podcaster yourself. I'm just starting out. Oh my goodness. We're all starting out. We're all figuring things out. And you've had some incredible guests on your podcast, but before we get to the podcast, your podcast and how it came about and also the beautiful and amazing community that you're building I'm going to go and jump straight in because I know that other than being a podcast and a community builder I'd like to hear from your words.
[00:01:05] So I think it's always best for the the listeners to hear from the guests words directly. What is it that you? What is it that you bring into the world?
[00:01:16] Ling Yah: I think what I bring to the world are really just stories. And it's stories not even of myself but of other people. And the reason why I love it and I care so much about it is because those stories transform my life.
[00:01:28] Because growing up, it was almost like a one track mind. It was a, I love to read, that means I love to write. But I don't want to be a teacher, so that means I have to be a lawyer. It was a strange thing looking back to realize that just because I was doing a law degree it I had to be a lawyer. That was the only thing in my mind, even though there were many alternatives.
[00:01:47] But those alternatives didn't even cross my mind because I didn't hear the stories of other people doing other things, even though they have started in a completely different field. But once I started doing law, then I started to meet people, talk to people, and I realized that actually lots of people pivot all the time.
[00:02:02] Lots of people always questioning what they're doing, why they're doing, is this where they want to be in 10, 15, or even not even that far, five years from now. And I realized that once I learned those stories, and it became normalized for me, to think about pivots and how you take those shifts. And suddenly I was pivoting as well.
[00:02:20] And suddenly I realized that when I share my story and the stories of others, other people were also being inspired and changing as well. So ultimately, stories are what I care about because they are powerful. And you remember them as well.
[00:02:31] Melissa: Wow. You've jumped ahead of some of the questions that I was asking.
[00:02:35] Thank you so much. But I'm going to, I'm still going to go back and tap into this fearless curiosity that I have. So you mentioned about being a lawyer. Could you share a little bit about that? Cause I know that's how you started your professional life. You mentioned about how you liked reading and therefore writing.
[00:02:50] And it seemed then back then when you were growing up, perhaps that obvious route or maybe the conditioned or stereotyped route that comes from having a skill or a gift in reading and writing is to go down the law route. Could you share a little bit more about your personal story of where you all began first in your professional career as a lawyer?
[00:03:12] Ling Yah: So when I was at that point of deciding where to go for university, I was actually torn between two paths. Either I was going to go to law school, I was going to go to a music conservatory. So those two were a very. distinct paths, but ultimately was the thought of well, music's always going to be there for you.
[00:03:30] So if you really care about it, you can always pick it up later. But law, you might as well just go because it's a safe path and it's prestigious, people recognize it, you'll pay well. So I went on that path and yeah, I guess I came back. I just applied for what I thought was one of the best law firms around and I specialized in IP litigation, which was a lot of fun, never experienced it.
[00:03:49] I expected myself to be the one appearing cool all the time, but it's a completely different lifestyle from other types of law. And it was fun because it was to do with IP, which I always cared about, and I still do. And IP, intellectual property, is all about the protection of essentially what you have created with your mind.
[00:04:06] Something like trademark ultimately is creating that mental association that one person has when they look at a particular mark. When I look at this logo, do I think of this company? If another company comes and. affects that kind of association, you can say there's infringement. How do you prove that someone is confused?
[00:04:23] That's the crux of what trademark is, and I thought that was always very exciting because I'm a creator as well, creative, and I like to know very much, how do I protect myself from a legal standpoint? So I did that and ultimately I also went in house as well because when you're a litigator, you only know one particular kind of law, and I wasn't drafting any contracts.
[00:04:40] I didn't even know how to review an MDA. So I didn't have that kind of almost holistic set of skills and felt a lawyer needed. And so once I had both parts, I felt it's time
[00:04:51] Melissa: to move on. So I, of course, I'm gonna pick up on the fact that you had two options. One was the law route and the other one was music conservatoire.
[00:04:58] So where does your PA or your passion, I would say in music originate. And do you play any instruments and how, three questions there. So where does it originate? Do you play any instruments? And thirdly, how did you continue to feed that passion? Because passions need feeding during the time that you just, you took the root of the law root.
[00:05:17] Ling Yah: Yeah, so I've always had music in my household. It's unimaginable for me to not have had it. I think what's helpful is that my mother was a piano teacher, so she taught me piano, but I really loved the violin, which she introduced me to. And I was very lucky because my teacher was very involved in the local scene.
[00:05:35] So in your first year, he was already putting me in an orchestra he had put together. We were already performing on stage. I was also performing in quartets and smaller groups and also solos as well. And obviously in the orchestra, the most symphonic scale of it. So when, from very young, I was exposed to that kind of performance angle, and I just loved it.
[00:05:54] I love the fact that you get to go on stage and you get the reaction for people. That's just that kind of adrenaline rush you won't get anywhere else. So I always really loved that. Answer your second question. I played both the piano and the violin. But I specialize more in the violin.
[00:06:09] Do
[00:06:09] Melissa: you still
[00:06:09] Ling Yah: play now?
[00:06:10] Melissa: Do you get time
[00:06:10] Ling Yah: to play now? I do, but a lot less.
[00:06:12] Melissa: A lot less. Would you like more time to play?
[00:06:15] Ling Yah: I think it's not so much time, but more, I think, priority. So I always tell myself I'm so busy and haven't got around to it. I think it's just a matter of priority, which I haven't admittedly done so far.
[00:06:25] Melissa: I'm wondering whether you agree with me that music and in particular musicians are quite undervalued actually because as musicians when we play and you'll know this, and especially getting up on stages and playing live, the impact that we have on someone's emotions and also on their stress or the management of stress is huge.
[00:06:49] Also you see, you say that you practice law, you, did you practice here in Malaysia? Yes, I did. And so trademark and IP international intellectual property that I find that particularly interesting as well, cause from the music background, because as a musician I had a career in the UK and I know that there we have music unions, right?
[00:07:07] We have a union. That doesn't really exist in, in Malaysia. And I know that when I was writing, and I still am writing music and original music it was almost like a misnomer here when it came to copyright law on music. Do you have any thoughts around that and any. Any interest at all or curiosity around the, how that is missing here in Malaysia and whether you feel that anything is changing now in terms of IP2.
[00:07:36] We will move on to the podcast, but since we, with that law background and very rare for me to meet someone who has the law and the music. So I'm personally curious on this.
[00:07:44] Ling Yah: What exactly are you looking to understand?
[00:07:46] Melissa: How, do you feel that as creatives in the music business we are missing out by not having some sort of body that protects us in terms of copyright here.
[00:07:56] There's no real copyright law for musicians here, is there?
[00:07:58] Ling Yah: There are some, but I wouldn't say I'm very well versed in it because I'm not actually in the local music scene, so I don't understand. what they are doing. I will say ultimately, even if you don't have that union, you yourself need to understand how to protect yourself.
[00:08:12] When it comes to something like copyright, for instance, it's an automatic right. So you don't need to register, but you do need proof. So if you're creating something, no matter what, make sure you have to prove when you're drafting something, you think your first draft is terrible, save it. Anyway, and there will always be the question of, but when did you create it?
[00:08:30] So make sure you take a screenshot, maybe take a screenshot and email it to yourself. So you have those dates, just have a physical record of something in some way, no matter what, even if you think it's ridiculous, you'll never use it. Be safe, then sorry. And just keep a record no matter what.
[00:08:47] Melissa: Thank you for that.
[00:08:48] That is a really crucial tip. And so this is going to be something I can definitely share with the whole sort of music community out there too. Back in the day, I remember when I was in the UK, what I used to do is, you're reminding me now, I used to mail before we had digital. The access we have to the digital world now is have to make a cassette tape and then mail it to myself as proof.
[00:09:11] But as Ling Yao says, yeah, track it. And I would say, let that be for any creative, whether it's music, for art, for writing, we just take a screenshot and have proof of that creation point. And without going too far off point, especially today in the day of, AI, being able to differentiate what is true original work and what has maybe been produced through AI.
[00:09:34] It's probably really crucial to track that data for yourself. So thank you. Thank you, Ling Yah. I am most interested about, you talk about pivoting. And you mentioned how, and this to me speaks on societal conditioning, right? I mentioned, you had mentioned about being good at reading or enjoying reading and therefore being good at writing and how sort of our traditional school systems and perhaps also our parents because of the way they were brought up, that sort of generational conditioning, that if you're good at certain things, then you should follow certain paths because I guess it's obvious.
[00:10:09] Like for me, it was maths, go to accounting, go to banking, go to finance and go down the safe and reliable route to a route that's going to, in a way, guarantee you an income in, when you're adulting, when you're in the adult life and in many ways, we kind of park our creative Our creative passions, our creative interests, how do you think that's changing now more and more?
[00:10:34] Because I know also you're very much in the personal branding space, you advise and consult people there. How are you seeing that trend or that conditioning change with the people that you're working with? In
[00:10:45] Ling Yah: terms of personal branding?
[00:10:47] Melissa: In terms of that level of awareness where people are less now bothered about going down this very professional corporate sort of traditional cookie cutter route of creating a career.
[00:10:58] So seeing
[00:10:59] Ling Yah: the kind of people who are seeing the trend in terms of people who are looking to pivot and do unconventional things.
[00:11:05] Melissa: Yes, I guess that's how I would put it because I don't see unconventional as unconventional. But the way that is changing, yes. Fair enough. I think
[00:11:13] Ling Yah: lots and lots more people are open to the idea of taking.
[00:11:18] Perhaps rather than using the word unconventional, there are alternatives beyond just climbing the corporate ladder and they are definitely open to the possibilities, they're open to the people who are doing it as well, because everyone's just trashing their stories. If you go on TikTok, for instance, you have people just talking to the video and saying, Hey, this is what I'm thinking.
[00:11:37] This is what I'm trying. This is my failure. This is the reality of losing, quitting your job and trying to follow your dreams. When you hear enough stories, people, then you start to normalize that as well. And you start thinking they also started with nothing. In fact, they started with probably less than what I have right now.
[00:11:52] If they can make it, then surely I can as well. And ultimately, what's the worst that can happen? So I feel that more and more people are willing to at least consider, if not try it out, and the trying out in itself, it's not that hard anymore. There's so many tools out there that you can use. And so many of those tools.
[00:12:08] are free. So it's almost a risk free test driving approach to seeing whether you can leave the traditional, if you will, corporate ladder to pursue something that might actually excite you. So that's definitely a possibility, I would say, and that's definitely a trend. I will also have to say, though, that because I've pivoted so much, then I'm probably attracting a lot more people who have pivoted or are looking to pivot.
[00:12:31] So there is that kind of potential echo chamber that I'm operating in as well.
[00:12:36] Melissa: Okay. And I guess we're living in a different age, right? Within the age of social media, we have access to, like you say, so many more personal stories out there, so many examples of people who are really sharing their struggles in life and their journey of pivoting, their journey of breaking free from self pity.
[00:12:54] And being the cycle breaker almost, even within their families. Both you and I come from Asian culture. It's very much about tradition and being a professional. All these creative endeavors are like pie in the sky, as you'd mentioned earlier, go down the safe route, go down what's reliable at any time you can fall back into your creativity when actually, there, there is so much scope for growth if we just follow our creativity too, but so that with social media, that's helped that changed. I'm interested on what it was in particular in your journey that sparked that curiosity or ignited or activated you to make that pivot out of the corporate ladder, out of law.
[00:13:37] What was it? What was it that happened?
[00:13:39] Ling Yah: I always knew I wanted to leave law, but I just didn't know how. And I think everyone around me was a lawyer. So it was really hard for me to figure out for a very long time, for years, I would say. But then whenever I tell people that I'm feeling very frustrated, I want to do something else, then they will always ask me the question of, What else do you want to do?
[00:13:58] And I never knew the answer to that, which frustrates me even more because if I can't even tell you what I'm interested in, want to do, then you can't possibly help me. So then I thought, how is it possible that I don't know what I'm interested in and I don't know what I want to do? And people always then say, Go and talk to other people and I thought yeah, I could talk to other people and I understand why people would advise that, but what can you possibly get out of 40 minutes with a complete stranger for coffee?
[00:14:23] I think you could get some things, but it doesn't feel very meaningful and it feels like a step in the dark. Let me talk to a consultant. Let me talk to a banker. How do you bring all that? All those kind of almost disparate advice together, it just didn't make any sense. And then along the way, I can't remember exactly how I stumbled upon this thing called podcast.
[00:14:41] And I listened to one episode of How I Built This by Guy Raz. And I was amazed because firstly, I listened, I learned more by visual, visually as opposed to listening. But with this in an hour, these two strangers felt like my best friends. They were operating in an industry I wasn't interested in. But I was very interested, thanks to them.
[00:15:01] And I could remember 70 80 percent of what they had shared, even though I always learned via visual aspects as opposed to learning orally. So that really had an impact on me and I just fell down that rabbit hole. I realized that this is a very powerful medium. It's starting to change the way I think, the possibilities there are.
[00:15:19] out there. And now I realize that there is an alternative beyond law. Why don't I just try and do it? I haven't figured out exactly what it is. So I will talk to people as advice, but I'll talk to people by running my own thing, which is a podcast and using that as an excuse almost to network, connect with people who are doing very interesting things.
[00:15:39] And for hopefully somewhere along the way, I will find what I'm actually interested in.
[00:15:44] Melissa: That is absolutely brilliant. Could you, would you say, for me, it sounds like one of those beautiful accidental miracles. It's like you couldn't, didn't plan it. Like you said, you were frustrated. You didn't know what you wanted to do.
[00:15:55] And if you don't know what you don't, if you don't know what you want, you won't even know what direction to go towards. And that, that, that moment of listening to that, just that right podcast at that moment, were you always someone who listened to podcasts before that moment?
[00:16:07] Ling Yah: Never. I didn't even know what it was.
[00:16:08] I At the end of a podcast, people always say, go and make sure you follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. And I went, what does that mean? Where is that? And I had to go to my phone and realize, oh, there is such an app called an Apple podcast I had no idea. So I really was starting from scratch.
[00:16:24] Melissa: How did you even, do you remember how you stumbled on that podcast?
[00:16:26] I honestly can't remember how I
[00:16:28] Ling Yah: was like, honestly, I wish I could
[00:16:30] Melissa: just one of those awesome moments. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. What risks did you take, Linh Nghia, to make that pivot, because you mentioned about stability in the safe range and then going from sort of Creating, building a career for yourself and what sounds like a successful and reliable career pivoting to something completely new.
[00:16:49] What kind of risks did you take?
[00:16:52] Ling Yah: I would say the risk compared to most people is quite minimal because it wasn't as though I woke up and I said, I'm going to do this thing, let's quit. I planned this for years. I don't spend a lot, so I knew that I would have plenty of savings to carry me through. I knew before I quit that there were several people who were lined up who had said, I will work with you.
[00:17:10] So all these things meant that I knew at least for the next three to six months. I would be fine. And I just had to make sure that I had more clients beyond the six months and nine months to 12 months. So ultimately, I couldn't possibly tell you if I was to be around in three years or five years time, but for some reason, thankfully things have always worked out so far.
[00:17:29] Melissa: It sounds to me like you've mastered this beautiful integration of having that structure, making that plan, but also having faith that no matter what so even then, let me just go back a moment, having the structure, making the plan, planning ahead, making sure that, you're going to be safe for three, six, 12 months or doing the math calculating that, you'd need to have more clients now to put aside for in case you need it in the future.
[00:17:56] But also having that faith within yourself that no matter what, you would be okay, that in this journey itself, opportunity and growth would enrich you to continue in the way that you needed to. And I think that, Ling Yah, for all our listeners this is something that Ling Yah has modeled that is possible to actually do a little bit of both.
[00:18:18] So thank you for sharing that, Ling Yah.
[00:18:20] Ling Yah: Oh, no, that's all. Thank you.
[00:18:23] Melissa: Did you meet any struggles or like what stereotypes did you disrupt on this journey? Have you had to disrupt any stereotypes or have you been just so singularly focused on, on you, on what you want to do next that perhaps you didn't even notice any natural disruption?
[00:18:42] Ling Yah: Can you give me an example of what stereotypes you're thinking of?
[00:18:45] Melissa: Like any really diminishing or minimizing comments about the pivot that you were making. Like, how could you even dream of leaving such a successful career to do something as flippant as podcasting? That would be a stereotype in my mind.
[00:19:01] Ling Yah: Did
[00:19:02] Melissa: you face any?
[00:19:03] Ling Yah: No, never. I've been very lucky. I have never once had a single person come up to me Ask me that. They might ask me, Oh, what's behind that pivot? But they've never criticized it or questioned it. I think a lot of that maybe they are. A lot of it also has to do with the fact that I've never truly cared about what other people think.
[00:19:21] It's always just been me since I was young. I just truly it's not even a question of I don't care about what people think it was The fact that it didn't cross my mind to care about what people think. It's just a question of why is it that I'm actually interested in and will I want to spend the time on it?
[00:19:35] Because ultimately the only person who's going to care about my life is me. So why would you leave your life detected by someone else who would probably forget about their throw away comments within five minutes from uttering it. So I think that's been helpful. I think what's been helpful as well is, of course, with the podcast, allow me to meet very interesting people.
[00:19:54] A lot of them do their own thing. Some of them become really good friends. And because they are so much further along their journey, it's and then get to know them a lot better, then they are the ones in terms of encouraging as well because they know what it's like starting out and how difficult it is.
[00:20:07] So when you surround yourself with the right kind of people who have also got plenty of advice because they've done the same thing as you, then you can't help but just think what's next as opposed to this was a terrible thing and I should have never done this.
[00:20:22] Melissa: Beautiful. Incredible. Again, listeners, please take note of that, this kind of imposter syndrome, the self doubt the confusion that we can often get very distracted by other people's opinions.
[00:20:35] And I love what you said there. It's they're not even going to remember what they said to you five minutes later. And actually the truth is no one's living your life Ling Yah? Yeah, you are and only you can your way. If ever you find yourself in that moment of doubt or whenever you, if ever you find yourself distracted by other people's opinions, go on over and listen to this is my podcast by Ling Yah.
[00:20:54] She'll be there to remind you of why you need to do things your way. Thank you for that golden nugget. Let's go to so this is my why podcast. You've had some incredible guests on your podcast. And 200, 000 overdone downloads. Did I get that number right? And how long have you, has the podcast been running?
[00:21:16] Ling Yah: It's been
[00:21:16] Melissa: running since the mid of
[00:21:17] Ling Yah: 2020.
[00:21:18] Melissa: God, that's not long for that many downloads. It's incredible. And folks, you need to go over and listen that you need to go over there and not just listen, but really check out at what I was particularly blown away by is the diversity of people that you've had, not just from our region, but really globally.
[00:21:36] Now, my question, and I remember writing this to you on LinkedIn, how on earth do you get some of these really successful, of course, success exists on a spectrum, but people almost I would feel are untouchable. How do, how did you reach them? What is the formula?
[00:21:54] Ling Yah: There
[00:21:54] Melissa: isn't a formula.
[00:21:55] Ling Yah: You just have to ask. 99 percent of the time people don't get it because they never ask. So when you ask, you might get it or you might not. Ultimately, me asking now and me asking four years ago, it's still as hard. It doesn't get easier because it's a numbers game. So why do some people succeed and some people don't?
[00:22:12] Because they just ask a lot more and they never give up. Oh,
[00:22:16] Melissa: I love that. What about reachability? I imagine that some of these people, with looking at the sort of careers that are the businesses that they've built are not that easy to access. Could, is there an example of someone you can give that you had to not jump through hoops, but maybe give us some tips on how to, the strategy to reach people who may be unreachable?
[00:22:38] Ling Yah: I think. It's important to not go into and ask thinking this person is unreachable. The moment you think that, then you set up your own mental barriers against that possibility. And there are so many ways. For me, I always want to be able to reach to that person personally. Especially if they are all the way up, because the last thing you want is to be get to be stopped by a contact form or to be stopped by their PR from their agent.
[00:23:04] The moment you hit someone like that, I know my chances have gone down less than 50%. So you always want to find their personal contact. And for a lot of people, you'll be surprised. They leave their emails accounts. It's easy. If they're on a podcast, they probably have the email there somewhere. You just have to put in the time to listen to it, to find out about it.
[00:23:21] I remember there was one interview I did with Eric Toda quite a while back. And he's now the director of social marketing at Meta. And he told me when we first met, this was in the interview itself, he said that Ling Yah, the reason I said yes to you, there were many reasons, and one of it is because you emailed me directly.
[00:23:38] And I'm a person where people normally have to go through many layers just to get to me. But you cut through all that and you just emailed me straight away. And because of that and many other reasons, I said yes.
[00:23:48] Melissa: Focus, determination, clarity, based on what you said there, you mentioned if you've hit an agent or someone in between, you feel, that there is, that is a mark that your chances have got lower at that point. It might
[00:24:04] Ling Yah: go lower, it might go lower, but they have definitely been really good agents who have definitely, accelerated that process.
[00:24:09] Melissa: Okay. So you don't stop there then? No, of course not. You
[00:24:12] Ling Yah: never get, you never ever
[00:24:14] Melissa: stop. Yes. Thanks. Okay. Love that. Amazing. So what have been your most, perhaps one or two since we're talking about personal stories, right? And this is what your podcast is built around, speaking to people from all walks of life to share what their why is, their personal stories to inspire others.
[00:24:36] Not to give up on their dreams, that it is absolutely possible to turn your dreams into reality, no matter how far fetched your mind may be lying to you about how far fetched it is. That is, it is absolutely possible, but not just for the inspiration, the personal stories also give us an insight into different strategies, different ways in which to turn your dreams into reality without sort I'm trying to find the right way to, to frame this because rather than say there's a favorite, okay, because I'm sure they're all so different.
[00:25:08] Yeah. Right now in this moment, what's the first, what's what's the most sort of present story you've had or guests share their story that's really stood out for you just right now in this moment as we're talking?
[00:25:21] Ling Yah: So I will share a story I have. Just released, Jonathan Mildenhall. So he's from the UK, grew up in Leeds, and he eventually became the SVP at the Coca Cola company before being poached to become the first chief marketing officer at Airbnb.
[00:25:38] He says moved on, done his own business, and also is now CMO of Rocket. But he's a chief a lot and it was against all odds because he grew up in Leeds and he's actually the middle child of five and he was a literal black sheep in his family because his mother had an affair with different men and all his four brothers were white and he was the only black person.
[00:25:59] So he grew up physical abuse, racial abuse, and he shared a story of how once he ran back home crying and told his mom, I don't want to be black. And his mom said, you have this amazing spirit and no matter what people can, people, you can't change the packaging, but no one can impact what's inside you.
[00:26:17] So keep that light shining. And he went to university. It was actually a polytechnic. He didn't know what he wanted to do. And a career advisor said, why don't you look into marketing? Cause I feel like your personality is suited for it. So he dove deep into it. He really liked it. He went to the career advisor later and he said, I really want to go and be an agent in the marketing industry and the career advisor then went, I don't think it's right for you because normally people enter it are from Oxbridge, they are white, they're middle class, you are everything but those things.
[00:26:49] It's not going to be good for you. But he was still very insistent. He tried, he said, he researched every single agency that was out there. Deep dived, he really planned it well. And when he went and he applied, some people didn't accept him. There was one firm that finally accepted him and they told him that we think you are an amazing person, you have amazing personality, but ultimately you are an experiment and we would like to take you on to see where it goes from there.
[00:27:15] So they took him in and he essentially rose to the top of the London advertising field before he was poached to join Coca Cola, CMO, and he just rose to the top. When I spoke with Jonathan at the time, he had just finished a Keynes panel with Will. i. am, and that's just one of the very small things that he's been doing.
[00:27:35] And how old is this young man? Oh,
[00:27:37] Melissa: I can't remember, 40, 50, I imagine. Yeah, wow. That's incredible. With all the people that you've spoken to and, with this topic of them sharing their personal journey to success and speaking about their whys, I imagine that not only have you have been privy to some very vulnerable moments and tough moments that they've been through, but having the, and I say this having the privilege to be able to provide a platform to share that with other people like me listening to your podcast.
[00:28:07] So now you're in the hot seat. You're on the hot seat, Ling Yah. And so far the questions that I've asked, you're you haven't really mentioned any difficulty or struggles. Have you experienced any difficulty or struggles in your journey so
[00:28:20] Ling Yah: far? Sure. I think one of the biggest struggles in.
[00:28:23] You might face this as well is just to get people to listen to the podcast to be aware of it to download. It's a huge ask. Nowadays, people will give you five seconds to read something with this podcast, and it's a long form. I'm asking for one hour of your time. I'm asking for an hour and a half or two hours.
[00:28:38] If you've never heard of me, you've never heard of a guest, you might not be interested in the topic. Why would you give me two hours? So it's a huge ask to even have you give me a chance, let alone listen to it for the entire length, let alone follow it, support it. That's always, and still is, a huge struggle.
[00:28:56] Melissa: I'm certainly inspired by you. Without a doubt, what keeps showing up time and time again, even in this short interview with you, is the power of the ask. And you're reminding me of something my mom always says to me. If you don't first of all, if you don't, if you don't try, you'll never know.
[00:29:13] And secondly, if you don't ask, the answer will always be no. Yeah. And I want to say right now, I, when I first found you and, discovered you on LinkedIn and I was blown away because of course you, you also your podcast was also mentioned and featured by James Corden and I'm thinking, wow.
[00:29:33] At the time, I didn't know you were a fellow Malaysian. I don't know how I missed that somehow, right? But I'm also, I also feel so much more pride when I see a woman and I see a woman who looks like me, we're Southeast Asian women. And I was beaming with pride and I thought, my God, I'm also a podcaster, and look at this incredible, This incredible profile you've created.
[00:29:52] I really want to know your journey. And of course, with the Fearlessly Curious podcast same, but different. So this is my why I'm all about asking people why they do what they do and how they do what they do. And I remember thinking, I really want her on the podcast, but you know what? Why would she be on my podcast?
[00:30:09] Ling Yah: Why would you think that though?
[00:30:11] Melissa: There you go. It's like you mentioned, do we want to focus on the why we're not going to get there?
[00:30:17] Ling Yah: Yeah.
[00:30:17] Melissa: Or the why and how we are going to get there and surrounding, when we focus on what we want and how to get there, we'll end up surrounding ourselves with people who celebrate and with more experience or there to, are there to support and encourage.
[00:30:32] So I want to say, first of all, thank you. Thank you for saying yes, and I know it's Thank
[00:30:39] Ling Yah: you for
[00:30:39] Melissa: agreeing, deciding to ask me and invite me onto your platform. I was like, I'm going to ask, I'm going to ask, and when you said yes, I was like, Oh my God, was it really that easy? Yeah, it really is that easy, just ask.
[00:30:51] And so what So I also know that you also host community events under, so this is my Y brand. And so what is the intent behind that? What is the purpose? What was the inspiration behind that?
[00:31:06] Ling Yah: Yeah. So I started that, I think, about, Two years ago, and it started because I started getting DMs and questions from people I knew, asking, why don't you just host a physical event?
[00:31:17] I would love to meet you and that blew my mind. I thought, why would anyone want to talk to me and meet me? Why would anyone want to know my story? Don't you want to hear other people's story, not mine? But eventually it got to a point where I thought, there's so many people who are asking, can you just host a little Gathering for people who are listening that I thought, why don't I just start a LinkedIn post and I opened that line with, do you want to meet new and interesting people?
[00:31:38] And I thought, honestly, like two, three people would say yes, and we might just go and grab coffee somewhere. It'd be really easy. And then if I knew it, 30 people said, yes, I would love to come. And I thought, oh, I need to actually plan this thing. There needs to be like a program. I need to, reach out and think, what am I going to do with this?
[00:31:53] 30 people who I do not know at all. So I did that first event and it was really great. I told them officially it will last for two hours. They all stayed for four hours and thereafter there were several who came and said, we're going to get dinner. Do you want to come? And I thought I'm really tired. So why don't you go get dinner?
[00:32:13] But I'm glad you enjoyed it so much that you stayed for four hours and still want to get dinner with each other. And that trend has continued on at every single event that I've done. I say two hours. They stay for four. I did one last Saturday and I was there until half past seven, starting at two. So it was like really long.
[00:32:31] And I think what's really special for me as well is that so many people who come are actually introverts and they will actually say in the application form, I'm an introvert. I'm really scared. I'm just coming to try and brush up on my communication skills. But these people are the ones who later come up to me and say, I never stay on for these events, or I'm never reaching out and talking to people, and I'm tired, my social battery is drained, but I stuck around for four hours, and I didn't even realize it was four hours.
[00:32:59] I think what helps is because everyone who comes, They come because they just want to meet new and interesting people. And when you're an adult, it's hard to make new friends. Whereas when you come to something like this, I've already told you straight out, there is no agenda. I'm not pushing anything.
[00:33:14] It's just a space for people to come if they want to meet someone different. And I just let you be. I don't touch it. I don't do anything. And it's worked so far. So I've really enjoyed it. And we just kept going as well. I think what helps as well is that lots of people come to know these events because of my posts on LinkedIn and also on the podcast.
[00:33:34] So I think in a way, there's a certain common denominator, people who listen to the podcast, people who are interested, people who want to do personal branding, who are thinking of career pivots. So there's the those kind of, oh, who are ambitious and want to climb up the career corporate ladder. So those kind of similar interests have to bind everyone together.
[00:33:51] So no matter how different your actual backgrounds are, ultimately, because your values or interests are the same, when you actually meet in person, you will very likely, more likely than not,
[00:34:01] Melissa: Click. Ooh. Sounds like you've created a nice, a very safe space for those who identify as introverts. Would you say that you identify as an introvert?
[00:34:11] Ling Yah: I would say I definitely wouldn't identify as an introvert, but I can be an extrovert in certain situations.
[00:34:18] Melissa: Okay. I definitely identify as an introvert and a lot of people find that hard to believe. But I am I'm sorry I missed you. Shame,
[00:34:25] Ling Yah: A strength.
[00:34:26] Melissa: Yeah. I'm sorry I missed your event this weekend, but I, oh, I hope to be able to attend another one.
[00:34:31] And how does one, so just again, just to address our listeners and viewers, be sure to check out all of Ling's links, which I'll be sharing, not just obviously this, so this is my podcast on YouTube, but all the other streaming platforms, but to also consider. Coming and meeting other people how do we connect?
[00:34:51] How do we become a part of your community so that we can, go back to. connecting with people in person and not just online, whether it's through LinkedIn or other social media platforms. That is something I feel that as humans, we've, as humans we have learned or redeveloped or become reacquainted with appreciating this in person meetup, especially after COVID.
[00:35:10] The lockdown four years ago. How does one come to one of your community events? Is there a protocol or what is the protocol?
[00:35:19] Ling Yah: Normally I announce it on all the social media platforms, but it's easy to miss it. So the easiest way to make sure you don't miss an announcement is to just join a newsletter, which comes out every week.
[00:35:29] And I would then announce saying that, Hey, this is event that's coming up. If you're interested, just let me know and I'll give you all the details.
[00:35:35] Melissa: Okay, great. Thank you. So you know what to do folks. And last but not least. You made the pivot, you're a pod, a very successful podcaster and that's growing.
[00:35:43] Oh no. It's a
[00:35:44] Ling Yah: successful with air quotations there.
[00:35:47] Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. We're all on our own timeline. And nobody's going to poop with 200, 000 downwards. That is, that, that is a milestone. That's huge. I know that obviously you just mentioned about your newsletter. So in your newsletter, what is it that people can find in your newsletter?
[00:36:03] And I, I mentioned personal branding as well. So how else is it that you help people?
[00:36:11] Ling Yah: There are two major parts to the newsletter. The first part is almost like a personal lesson for myself, and I give you an insight into what I've been thinking about, what I've been reading, what's been happening. I give you the behind the scenes 'cause normally it's rather polished and I'll just say, here's an event that's coming up by, in a newsletter.
[00:36:28] I will then go in depth into the, this is what I'm thinking of, this is what I'm struggling with, this is what I'm uncertain about. This is the reason why I'm running this particular game for this purpose. So hopefully when you read it, you go, oh, maybe. I want to do the same thing as well. I understand why she's doing it.
[00:36:43] I care deeply about the why I think it's very important that people think why you do things as opposed to, oh, this person say you should do this. Therefore, I should right now think about the why before doing it. So that's the first important part. The second part is the personal branding part. So I will always list certain posts that I found on LinkedIn that have done really well, gone really viral.
[00:37:02] And then a little note whether it's just Yes. Transcribed Should give a little bit of insight into why I think this posted really well or it's just going to be a general personal branding. advice and I tend to take little snippets of that from the course I'm currently building. So it gives you an idea of what you can expect if you want to learn with me on how to build your own personal brand on your own steam.
[00:37:22] Melissa: Okay. So are you're coaching, you're teaching, training, coaching peak groups right now? You say you're developing a course. Yep.
[00:37:29] Ling Yah: So there are two things I do. I do one on one personal branding. So that's the premium service where it's like I do it for you with you. And the second is the last one, which is a course.
[00:37:40] And it's where I bring you through for six weeks. And I teach you how to start from ground zero, figuring out Why you want to do a personal brand, what kind of strategy should you implement, what are the interesting questions to ask to extract the right stories, how to align it to your objectives and put it out there, because ultimately the course came out of me working with my own personal clients for over a year, and I realized that no matter how difficult different they are, and they come from like the AI space, the ESG space, the marketing space, very different fields.
[00:38:12] They're founders, C2 executives, but a lot of them have common issues. And some issues would be, I think I'm very boring, I have nothing to share. Or, I think I'm very interesting, I have too much things to share and I don't know why I should share and why. Or it could be that I just don't have the time. Or it could be that, yeah, I know I need to put it out there, but writing is not my strength.
[00:38:33] I can speak, but I can't write. So all these things come together and I realize that ultimately, one of the big things that I can help with, which everyone needs, is helping you to figure out how to ask yourself questions. Because no one is ever truly boring. It's just that you're not asking yourself the right questions.
[00:38:52] And when I have run this podcast, the number one feedback I get from everyone is, Oh, Ling Yah, you're awesome. Really interesting questions. And so then I thought isn't it obvious all these questions I'm asking? I guess it's not since I'm getting so much feedback. Therefore, it's something people will love to learn.
[00:39:06] Why don't I teach them? Because if you have the right questions, you can bring out the right stories from you. Then I'll teach you how to align it with your content pillars or your objectives and how you then, start to make sure that you just keep going, have the right system in place, etc. But it all starts with having the right why and the right questions.
[00:39:27] Brilliant. And is this course live already? Yeah, this course is live. So right now, what I've done is I've said that I'm currently in the midst of preparing it. And so if you sign up now, you get a one off. It will never come back again. 50 percent off because you're buying it on faith. This course is not complete yet.
[00:39:44] And as I'm writing it, I'm going to be reaching out to you. I could also use your examples as well. So then This course will be built alongside you if you think something's unclear you will like me to expand on certain things I could take that on board and build that course for you as well. And then once this whole Beta stage is over and I officially launch it you get to do the whole thing again for free So you get the full proper experience
[00:40:08] Melissa: Oh my God, that sounds incredible.
[00:40:10] Pretty much almost irresistible. I might even check that out myself, Ling Yah. So congratulations on this new course.
[00:40:16] Ling Yah: Oh, thank you.
[00:40:17] Melissa: Congratulations on your 200, 000 plus downloads. Thank you. I'm going to congratulate myself. Yeah. Forgetting Ling Yaho, the podcast. No,
[00:40:27] Ling Yah: congratulate yourself for doing this and constantly showing up.
[00:40:30] I think that's the hardest thing, isn't it? I struggle with it myself. You keep doing it and you go, Oh, but the downloads are not there. Does anyone care? Is anyone listening? Yeah. What keeps you going? Melissa?
[00:40:41] Melissa: Why don't you share? What keeps me going? I'm not going to lie. It's literally my fearlessly curious, my fearless.
[00:40:48] Curiosity, similar to you I'm a forever student. I love learning and I, there's nothing that moves me more than hearing other people's stories. Yes, I agree. That's, once upon a time, that's what our ancestors did, right? They all sat around the fire and they shared stories.
[00:41:06] And essentially with that, For social media, that's what people are also doing. But we, but the angle at which, it's like nice having the one place to go to and I have my own personal curiosities about things. So although I have a bit of a format, I also like to go wild a little bit, like earlier when I said to you, I don't think I've quite heard of a struggle, not that I'm trying to dig, but is there one?
[00:41:26] Just needed to clarify.
[00:41:27] Ling Yah: Yeah. So that's
[00:41:28] Melissa: what keeps me going. Yeah.
[00:41:29] Ling Yah: And I love the theme of your podcast for sure. After interviewing so many people, the number one thing I find that binds everyone together is curiosity. You always start with that no matter what. I have this guest, this very good friend, Julien, episode three.
[00:41:42] He actually told me, don't, when you're trying to figure out what to don't chase the money, chase the curiosity. Just chase it, go down that rabbit hole, before you know it, you're there. Doors will open, but you've got to follow curiosity for us.
[00:41:56] Melissa: I love that. And that's something that certainly connects both of us, that curiosity.
[00:42:00] Yeah. In fact, that's just going to, that's going to lead me to one more question. And that is, as a sort of Southeast Asian woman for me personally, what I found as I've been growing up and perhaps that's changing now. But always being shut down for asking why quite a lot. And I feel a lot of the time, not so much in the circles that I'm mixing anymore, mix in anymore, but I do see it.
[00:42:25] I do see it out there where people have been so shut down for being curious that they've stopped asking why. And so what ends up happening is people live a very what's the word, homogenic. Cookie cutter life and at some point they reach this point, they reach this point in their lives, crossroads in their lives, maybe something happens, life throws them a curveball, something terrible happens often, whether it's a loss of life or in the family or someone they love or health issue.
[00:42:53] And then they start asking why again. And I think that's also, you asked, what keeps me going. That's one of the things that keeps me going, which is to continue to at least to. Be a bit of, not a bit, to be that spark, that disruptor, to encourage people to disrupt, not other people's beliefs, but challenge their own by being curious because the world is moving and changing fast, right?
[00:43:17] And it's one of the most beautiful ways to keep growing is to ask why. So what was my point? My point was. Do you see that? Is that something you have experienced yourself as a woman of who originates from or who's culturally back your cultural background, maybe Southeast Asia? Have you noticed that in the past where we don't generally ask why so much we have become very compliant?
[00:43:45] Have you noticed that?
[00:43:47] Ling Yah: I think certainly growing up in Asia, you tend to fall more along the roads off just Following instructions. There is no space for it. What is lucky, and I suppose it's a bit unique to me as well, is that I just happen to be in a space where it's not enough to just follow the rules.
[00:44:07] When you're a lawyer, you have to think about why all the time. When you are helping to draft witness statements. You have to think about why every question, every answer that's given is very intentional. There's a narrative you want to put forward, no matter what, when you're putting out a story, when you're helping people to build personal brand.
[00:44:22] It's always the, why is it? There is a lot more thinking involved than you might think. realized. And I think it's, it's always easier to just follow what people have set out. And it's still something I have to remind myself as well, because I do find myself sometimes reflecting and realizing, oh, I just took on this assumption about a certain matter without even questioning its validity.
[00:44:47] And I need someone to challenge me on that and say then you have to consider it. The other side of the story, and I realized, oh my gosh, I never even crossed my mind. So I think it's important to surround myself with people who will challenge me, but also to always think to myself, are you? Reading holistically as well.
[00:45:05] There's one advice that another guest gave me, Steve Chow, he was an Al Jazeera senior investigative journalist, and he was talking about the state of journalism and how it's going downhill, and he said that the one thing that everyone can do is to just read widely. Don't read just one thing, but read widely, gain many different perspectives so that you can come to your own conclusion.
[00:45:29] And that's something I'm definitely still working on, but once you read widely, you are aware of the many views out there, and therefore you're probably more likely to then start questioning going, wait, but that's just one perspective. What about the other? And hopefully that would, open your mind to other
[00:45:43] Melissa: things.
[00:45:45] That's a great piece of advice and I would extend that to we get very, we're creatures of comfort as humans, right? We like going to the same places and hanging out with the same people. It's too much work. But this is where I think podcasting helps, right? If we're not, we feel, we've, and sometimes it's a question of safety.
[00:46:00] We don't, we, or we don't know where to go to discover something new. We can do that through podcasts. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:46:06] Ling Yah: And. Podcast is also dangerous as well, because he can also be an echo chamber. Once you really love a particular host who cares about a particular thing, has a particular political leaning, if you only listen to him, you're gonna think exactly like him and think that the world revolves around this, anyone against it is insane, when that's not the case.
[00:46:23] So be careful as well, I would say, no matter who you're listening to, including me. I've done my, I would like to think I've done my research, but I might have missed something. So whatever story, whatever thing you've learned, question it. Do your research.
[00:46:37] Melissa: I love that. Be relentlessly curious. Yeah.
[00:46:40] And I think diversity as well, as you mentioned, it's very easy to get comfortable even listening to the same podcast. Keep the keep what you listen to, what you read, what you consume varied. Even at a basic level, we talk about nutrition and what we eat, literally what we put into our bodies.
[00:46:54] We don't eat the same thing all the time because if we did, our body would literally burn. break down. So folks listening, listen to what Linh Nghia just said. Remember diversity, keep it colorful, keep it interesting for yourself, and no matter what, keep it curious. So just two more questions before we go.
[00:47:10] First one, I have to ask you, especially now as I know you also have this music background, I'm wondering, again, it's the first thing that comes to mind, if anything comes to mind, if you were a song, what song would you be?
[00:47:21] Ling Yah: Oh no, I have a feeling you could ask a question like that. I just had a feeling. For some reason I struggle with questions like this so much because I've always tend to listen to words more soundtrack.
[00:47:38] Melissa: Yeah, that's fine. Anything. So maybe for you just name a movie where the soundtrack really moved you. Gosh, it's
[00:47:45] Ling Yah: really difficult. Right now I'm obsessed with Tommy Prophets.
[00:47:49] Melissa: And whatever he comes up with. Yes. Okay. I don't even, I can't even say I'm familiar with Tommy Proffitt. I'm going to go and check out Tommy Proffitt.
[00:47:57] Yeah, he's a great composer
[00:47:58] Ling Yah: and he works with many different artists in the US.
[00:48:01] Melissa: Okay. This is why I ask the questions. I learn something new every day. I just wrote a post about that, new music. So for that. Tommy Proffitt, I should go and check him out. And last but not least, as we wrap up this podcast again, I want to just extend my gratitude for you saying yes, for coming, for being so open and engaging and colorful.
[00:48:20] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. What would you like to leave our listeners and viewers with one, one, one golden nugget for them to go away with? Be curious and never settle.
[00:48:32] Ling Yah, it's been an absolute pleasure. I wish you well in all your endeavors with the, so this is my podcast with your personal branding coaching and your new course and everything that you've touched me, you continue to inspire and activate and ignite all those fearlessly curious people out there.
[00:48:50] Ling Yah, thank you so much. Melissa, thank you so much. I've had a great time.